#IANDS Archives - Closer To Venus

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johnny Burke: Welcome to Closer to Venus. I’m johnny Burke. Today’s guest is Jen Catlin. She is the interim director of the Education Committee for the Michael Newton Institute, a hypnotherapist co-founder of Soul Connection Hypnosis, and a near-death experiencer. Today we will talk about the expansion of consciousness and trends in Life, between lives sessions. Jen, welcome to the program

Jen Catlin: Thanks for having me.

johnny Burke: how did you find yourself, on this path? How did you get started?

Jen Catlin: Yeah, so earlier in my career I was a school psychologist and came from a very western psychology background. So I wasn’t always into this. I had some yoga training and so I had some practices with that and mindfulness. However, I didn’t know what hypnosis was at all. So I would fast forward maybe about, five, six years after that.

In my early thirties, I had a series of spiritually transformative experiences. STEs. Yes. And N D E is a type of STE, but I had a series of them happening in a very short amount of time. Things that people would start to think are weird coincidences, but they were things that went even beyond that that I just couldn’t explain and so much was happening. I started getting all kinds of downloads of information on how to work with emotional energy and things I didn’t know how to make sense of.

I had a really, really big STE at one point, all of this brought me to learning about what hypnosis is in a very strange way. I think many people, when we look back on our lives at the time, don’t know what’s happening, but we can look back and see key players or key instances that happened in life, and it’s like, oh, that’s what that was. And so I had some people walking into my life who, one person handed me a book and said, I think you need to read this. This is what’s happening. And it was a Brian Weiss book. And so that led me into exploring, I still didn’t really know, I wasn’t into this at all, but there was something deep in my core that said, you have to explore this. At the same time, I have a very logical analytical brain, very logical. And so my brain was fighting it the whole way. Like, this doesn’t make any sense. Why are you doing this?

johnny Burke: I know which book you’re talking about. I think it’s somewhat of a bible for a lot of people in that space. So, let’s go back to the NDE. Was that the first STE that you had or were there things that happened before that?

Jen Catlin: Yeah, it was not for a period of about two months prior to that, I was having many STEs, many very strong synchronicities. Like I said, downloads of this information just flooding in and like visions of inner child healing and things I didn’t even know about. And then I did go to hypnosis training soon after that. I felt like I was going crazy. Somebody led me into that book, decided to explore more about it.

I was in clinical hypnosis training. I had not had past life regression training yet. I didn’t know who Michael Newton was. I happened to train with somebody who was Newton Institute, life between lives facilitator and trainer. But I didn’t know that everybody else was there for that reason. And so in the training we were practicing, just working on general emotional things. And I had a big s t e where typically in hypnosis, your conscious mind is present. That’s just how it is while you’re experiencing. Something happened where my conscious mind was completely not present and I didn’t even have awareness. I was flipping back and forth, and so I was guided to another planet and everything that I experienced there felt extremely emotional and more real than this life experience. two weeks after that happened, I had an N D E.

johnny Burke: So that was during a session or was that outside the session?

Jen Catlin: It was during a session, but it was prior to past life regression training, so I didn’t have any training in that. I still didn’t know anything about Michael Newton didn’t know that was even possible, and because the experience was so emotional, and it felt so real and impactful my conscious mind when I came back and was emerging, because we were just working on confidence. Like I had nothing to do and the person facilitating did had no idea I was flipping back and forth. I didn’t know until after the fact. And I think had I been aware of that, my logical mind would’ve kicked in saying, what’s going on here? Like, you’re making this up. This isn’t even real.

johnny Burke: It

Jen Catlin: did. It was.

johnny Burke: It sounds like something out of like a sci-fi book, doesn’t it???

Jen Catlin: It felt like that.

johnny Burke: And it probably felt like that. So, before I forget, downloads; I’ve never experienced one. I have no idea what that’s like, what does it feel like, as compared to the NDE or anything that you can use as a comp in the spectrum of STEs?

Jen Catlin: I didn’t know what to call them when they were happening. I say the word download because I don’t know any other way to describe what was happening. But what was happening was I kept getting these very clear visions that would pop up and, in the visions, it felt like what was happening would take maybe hours’ worth of human time, but they were happening in human time within a blip of a second. It felt like hours’ worth of material. It would be very, very quick. some of them were happening while I was driving and it was just floods of information, but it was like, even though it felt like it was so much happening within a small amount of time, I was able to make sense of it.

I just knew what it was. There were things teaching me about emotional energy that emotions are energy and how to work with them and process them for inner healing. And I had things about my inner child just spontaneously emerging, and these visions were sequential, so they would pick up where they left off in moments where I was just, doing other things, like I said, like driving or something like that,

johnny Burke: That occurrence sounds very much like what people describe when they have an N D E and they otherwise trip into across the veil; things happen, it covers a lot of ground like you just described, but in like almost a nanosecond, but they’re still able to, understand it, right?

Jen Catlin: That’s exactly what it is. and I didn’t process this logically at the time. I wasn’t thinking about it consciously, but looking back, I can see that was my first glimpse into time- not being what we really experience in this human realm that is different.

johnny Burke Which we’ve all heard many, many times, with regard to time or being. Outside of time, which my mind can’t get around that, but

Jen Catlin: Yeah, my brain has a hard time processing

johnny Burke: Yeah. Whatever my brain can and can process is not the point, but, I certainly get yours. Let’s talk about the NDE; what were the most important parts of that and the things that you notice? afterwards?

Jen Catlin: Yeah, so my NDE was a little bit different than some who might see their body. I had awareness just prior to having it, that I lost consciousness and it actually happened while I was driving and I had enough time to sense what was happening to quickly pull over the car. I got my husband on the speed dial.

My body? Half of it was paralyzed and I was slurring, so I thought I was having a stroke. Later found out I wasn’t. They don’t know what happened. I was having cardiac issues at the time from Lyme disease. I had been bitten by a tick, and so I got pulled over. I felt I was losing consciousness. And I remember thinking, because at this time I still questioned, I didn’t know if anything more existed beyond us.

And I remember just having the intention, I felt very fearful, and I said,

“if anything exists, anything out there, I need help right now.” And I just completely lost consciousness at that point. And when I lost consciousness, I still had awareness. But it didn’t feel like a dream. It felt very, like real time and I was in outer space, and I didn’t have a body, and it felt like my energy was what I could see, because it was very visual, was myself surrounded by this structure of very, very tall gems. They were shiny and there were very vivid colors in each of them, all different colors. And some of the colors were not colors I’ve even seen before.

johnny Burke: Right. I’ve heard that before. I was about to say colors that don’t exist here. I remember one of our speakers a while back was saying,” well, colors I have never seen here on Earth. That’s not normal”. I thought, yeah, no, it’s not pretty cool, but definitely not

Jen Catlin: Normal. Right. And I wasn’t thinking that at the time it felt like, this is it. And so I was in the structure, and it was open at the top open to just space around it. There was like a voice. I don’t necessarily feel like I heard it in my ears, but it was an inner hearing that told me very firmly, I could sense that I had free will to leave that structure. What I felt was happening was that I could feel energy coming off of those gems and it felt like there was a presence of others around that supporting that. And it was sustaining my life, my own energy.

I had free will, I could feel like I could leave if I wanted to. But I also felt like if I do, I’m not coming back. And there was a very firm, again, inner hearing of a voice that said, ‘stay here. Do not leave’. I could feel that very firmly. And so I stayed and that was it. The next thing I noticed, I just kept receiving this energy. The next thing I was aware of was being pulled out of the car by EMTs when I regained consciousness.

johnny Burke: The voice or whatever the communication it sounds like it was telepathic, was telling you to stay and not go to where, what a lot of people describe as home, right? in other words, don’t go to the Emerald Castle just yet,

Jen Catlin: Correct. And you know the STE that I had two weeks prior to that was extremely impactful because that was another planet. There were other beings that felt like family in the sense that I can’t even describe, and the energy of unconditional love was so intense. Like nothing I’ve ever felt here before. And I have a very loving family, so it just doesn’t exist here. I would never have thought I could make something up like that in my wildest dreams, and it felt so emotional and so, that’s something that I later attempted to reconnect with and what I got through hypnosis was this imagery and feeling of myself being placed on a boulder with this strap around my solar plexus, a huge boulder, and said, you’re not going anywhere. You’re not grounded enough right now. Because at that time I just kept wanting to be there, connect with that, because it was such an amazing feeling.

When people go through STEs and NDEs, there’s an integration process that needs to happen. There’s a lot of aftereffects that people experience and I was going through it, but I didn’t know that at the time. so I can see why at the time I wasn’t grounded. I needed to integrate and to be here and to find my purpose and be in this life. So I think all of that, might partly be why as well? I don’t know that I didn’t go out more, but I also felt like if I did, it was almost like I was so far gone. I just sensed I wasn’t coming back.

johnny Burke: You could have stayed, meaning you could have not come back. You had free will

Jen Catlin: Correct,

johnny Burke: to do that. Okay.

Jen Catlin: Yes, I had, I definitely had free will to leave. I could feel that deeply, like ‘you can go. But we’re recommending you don’t, that’s what I felt. It’s just not time to do this.

johnny Burke: And it’s probably something you’ve heard many, many times in your work, at the Michael Newton Institute, which we’ll talk about in a moment. What you just said about aftereffects, many report things like elevated psychic abilities. Some even report that they have mediumistic abilities. And one person I spoke with said’ I didn’t want this.’ This was a byproduct of his NDE. you basically experienced something similar to that?

Jen Catlin: Yeah, I wouldn’t say that I came back with psychic abilities necessarily. What I do feel shifted for me was my fear of death was gone, and I was somebody who used to be terribly afraid of death and dying.

That disappeared. and that’s a very common one as well. People do come back. I’ve heard all kinds of stories of people coming back with different abilities that they didn’t have before. I’ve always been somebody who’s been emotionally sensitive and in tune with how other people are feeling. But what I felt changed, and it was a period of time after that, was an enhanced ability to just feel all the other stuff. And it was more on an emotional level. What shifted was just this ability almost in talking to somebody, like if somebody could talk to me about things they struggle with in their life. Just this innate- very quickly I know what’s going on like deep down at the root, like it’s not about what’s up here. And so I can incorporate that stuff into my practice with people and I don’t know, there’s just the ability to like to see past what the surface level stuff is.

johnny Burke: Your empathic abilities got a bit of a boost.

Jen Catlin: Yes.

johnny Burke Yeah, that’s pretty much in line with what I’ve heard before.

Let’s talk about your work at the Michael Newton Institute. How did you wind up there and more importantly, what did you learn there that you might not have learned anywhere else?

Jen Catlin: Yeah, so I ended up there because I happened to be originally in a training with an instructor who was Newton Institute certified. And again, everybody else I found out that was, there was like talking about Michael Newton after a while, and I hadn’t read any of those books. I hadn’t heard of Michael Newton, but when I had the STE in that class, prior to past life regression, some of the messages I received from those beings were, ‘you have to keep going, there’s more. ‘And I felt this just deep sense of purpose in that.

When I eventually read Michael Newton’s books and learned about his research and that what I experienced was actually a possible thing, was just felt drawn to like, ‘oh my gosh, you have to explore this. ‘I don’t want to give the impression that I was okay with it immediately because when I had these experiences, it took me years to integrate and to be okay with it. And even to be at the point now where I can talk about it, I’m very aware that much of what I experienced in Western psychology would be considered pathological or something like that.

So I did not want to talk about it for a long time, and I’ve since found out people who’ve had NDEs have been labeled. I’ve given talks to therapists about people who have had NDEs and STEs who are afraid to tell their therapists what they’ve experienced because they’re well aware that it sounds abnormal.

johnny Burke: The average time between the event- and this is coming from someone from IANDS, he was active in that organization for a while.

Jen Catlin: Yeah.

johnny Burke: The average time between the event and when these people actually disclose it is about 10 years. We’ve had a bunch of people from IANDS and some of the other, nonprofits, they all say the same thing. I don’t want to tell my wife, I don’t want to tell my girlfriend or, I can’t mention this at work. They’ll think I’m ready for the looney bin or something.

Jen Catlin: Absolutely, and it’s happened. I’ve seen people medicated. Again, it’s part of the integration process and I think it is important to get this out there, and I love that you’re getting this kind of information out there because so many people, even if they’re not having near death experiences, are having other types of spiritually transformative experiences. I’m seeing it every day in my practice

johnny Burke: Yes, andpeople

Jen Catlin: are afraid to talk about it.

johnny Burke: They are- the stigma and the fear of talking about it is somewhat less than it was maybe like five years ago. And this space, the life between lives space, once I found out about it and I started asking people about it that were on the show, they would say, “oh yeah, I’ve done this, I’ve done that. yeah, it’s just like this. And it’s like casting a movie. “What is amazing; every single person that I’ve talked to that had the experience of that space- in between incarnations, the details might vary a little bit, but the mechanics are almost identical. And so, speaking of which, now I know that you’ve seen this in your sessions; in your experience, did you actually get to experience this space or was it just like the NDE and the other STEs?

Jen Catlin: The space of, you mean life between lives?

johnny Burke: Yeah.

Jen Catlin: I didn’t have a life review ,I’ve experienced those things in a life between lives hypnosis session, but in my NDE and STE the big one two weeks prior to the N D E, I would say yes, but that’s more in Michael Newton’s second book, Destiny Of Souls. So like other incarnations and things I didn’t feel possible. What I did experience in that same S T E prior to going to that other place was myself as a light being in outer space with two others, and then there was a teacher. The three of us were sitting there. We were just like energy, balls of energy sitting there with a teacher, and it was like I was watching myself and that felt more like a memory, like ‘yep, like I remember this happened’ versus real time where on the planet it was definitely real time. What was happening was we were in human school. And so the teacher was lighting up a diagram of what it’s like to be human, like a diagram of the body and energy centers in the body. And so I would that was definitely sort of more the life between live space
along with the incarnation and other planets. I’m sure we’ll talk about more of that another time, but those things are all things that are experienced in life between lives.

johnny Burke: It sounds like you’ve experienced it multiple times. Speaking of Michael Newton’s books, many of us have read Journey of Souls and then Destiny of Souls, Right.?

Jen Catlin: Yes. Yeah.

johnny Burke: There’s so many cases, there’s thousands that, as I described before, the details might vary, but the mechanics are almost always the same.

So I think it’s fair to assume that you have experienced it. That’s what it sounds like to me.

Jen Catlin: Sure, yes. I’ve experienced aspects of it, even though it wasn’t like life review or something. Yes, it was definitely the life between life space that was experienced. And I can say that now, looking back at the time again, I didn’t know, I didn’t know what that was.

johnny Burke: I had someone on recently, who does this kind of work and she says with every past life regression, she always takes them to the time when they last died. And there’s always a life review, and I’ve never heard that. I never knew a therapist always went to the life review, with their patients in each session. Is that unusual or not necessarily?

Jen Catlin: What I’m finding, it’s not unusual in the work I do, all of my sessions, I take them to life review from a past life regression. I feel like that it’s so important because for me, if somebody’s experiencing a past life regression or life between life session, for me it’s not just about curious exploration; like we’re here in this lifetime to experience and to learn and grow.

And so I want to help people know what it is about that lifetime or about whatever you’re getting that is relevant and important for you in this life, and how can that help you? So the life review process can be part of that because there are things we can explore around what’s relevant from that time to today. But what I do find and what I’ve heard from people that I’ve seen who’ve had other past life regressions is what’s out there in general? that it’s not as common, and that was surprising for me. I didn’t know that a lot of practitioners don’t explore life review. They just stop at the death scene,

johnny Burke: But they almost always go at least back to the death scene and in some cases, especially if you’re going to do more sessions, they might revisit several different deaths in several different lives in the past.

Jen Catlin: It depends on the session. In the Newton Institute oftentimes when we’re doing a like a single past life progression, we will explore much more fully, because the methodology Michael Newton developed is a really comprehensive. It includes going back through childhood into the womb and doing a womb regression. There can be so much there in utero. That’s like our first experience of coming into this life, and you have the consciousness of the soul, the consciousness of the human. Mom’s consciousness and they all can overlap.

And so there’s a lot to explore there. But then it also includes going to the past, another lifetime that is important to explore today, and then doing the life review.

So if you include all of those elements, that in itself is oftentimes two and a half hours, sometimes longer. It can be up to three. So, I think it just depends on the methodology. Everybody’s taught in a different methodology. There’s different ways to explore.

johnny Burke: One thing I did want to bring up, because obviously you’ve had several different STEs, have you had any experience with spirit guides or beings of light. things of that nature.

Jen Catlin: Sure. When I initially had the STE where I found myself as a light being, it didn’t feel like a guide. There was like a more experienced energy being with us that was teaching us. It felt more like a teacher than a guide. Other than that, I’ve had guides show up in life between life sessions that I’ve had. I did not have any guide presence in the other STEs that I had.

johnny Burke: You saw your guides show up in one of your personal sessions, or was that with one of your clients?

Jen Catlin: Well, with clients, yes, they do often show up. Not always, but I think it also depends on where a person is at and what they’re needing in this life. But in my L B L session, I did have a guide show up.

johnny Burke: So, are you communicating with the guide or is the sitter or your client actuall, communicating with the guide or is it both?

Jen Catlin: The client, My preference is, as long as it is possible and to do as much as you possibly can to get the client to communicate directly with their guides. So sometimes I’m telling the client like, ask your guide this, but I’m not asking them directly.

johnny Burke: Okay because I’ve heard that that kind of contact can be a bit draining. as in like mediumship readings,

Jen Catlin: Even when we’re facilitating any session where we’re expanding, accessing expanded conscious beyond this body and mind. I’ve sat in a seven-hour session before. That was the longest life between lives- I don’t do that anymore. They’re not that long anymore. Actually. They’re going a lot faster now, but I have sat there facilitating a seven-hour session before, and when I’m in space, it feels like I’m energized. But afterward, it used to feel like I ran a marathon. It would need, I mean, it can take a lot of energy because. As a facilitator, we’re opening up into that space too, to stay with our client.

And sometimes there are mediumship things that will drop in and come in.

I’ve had that happen. I’ve had pings of things like, say this, say this, and the clients tell me right after, like, “oh my gosh, whatever you just said, like had already just shown up and, or I already just did that.” Or they’re getting messages and it’s like we’re right there in that space. So it can be draining at times.

johnny Burke: I’ve heard that quite a bit. Let’s talk about the trends in life between life sessions, how do you think this might have an impact on expansion of consciousness, which a lot of us are hearing about these days, Ascension, that type of thing. Is it related?

Jen Catlin: Yeah, so something’s been happening. Like you said, the stigma in the past five years is less than it used to be. I’m noticing something is happening probably in about the past five years or so, where there’s just been a shift in the amount of people that I’m noticing are having STEs. And partly that could be because maybe my energy has shifted too, but other people are noticing it as well. I don’t know how else to explain it other than- and this is only my personal belief. I don’t know if this is true or not, but I feel like human consciousness is expanding. The veil is thinning. I’m having people reach out frequently about how even three weeks prior, they would’ve never believed any of this, but suddenly there’s all these experiences happening and maybe they’re experiencing mediumship with verified evidence or they’re having other types of STEs.

And what we’re noticing in life between live sessions are that they have also shifted. We developed a new curriculum last year in the Newton Institute

to allow for more flexibility because we’re noticing there’s not such a linear process that’s happening in sessions that used to happen when Michael Newton was doing research back in the sixties. People are connecting much more quickly, and so they’re not needing oftentimes 45 minutes to an hour just to go through the process to get there and to open. People are accessing other realms. There’s a lot of that coming through, and information that I think people are drawing forward to continue to help their development as a human, but also consciousness in general.

Because as each person sort of wakes up, even those of us that have a very logical mind, if there’s a part of us that’s like, huh, there’s something about this. Information that feels resonant in some way that I want to explore more. To me, that is the soul calling, like, ‘yes, I exist! There’s more than just this body in mind.

And as each of us experiences that and explores that, I think we’re all connected to each other’s energy shifts. And just by being here around others, it facilitates their energy shifting.

johnny Burke: Every time we have these types of discussions, certain things come up; expansion of consciousness, ascension, people waking up, medium explosions, there’s psychics everywhere. some may not be that well trained, but do you think that’s all connected as well? It’s all part of what’s going on?

Jen Catlin: I do. I think anything that transcends the experience of just the human body and human brain and opens us into that space that it’s all connected, but the pathways in the mediums for which people might connect to that are going to vary person to person. And not everybody’s going to get there either. And that’s okay. Like we’re all here to experience something and our own truths and we need all kinds of people. I mean, you’re here doing this podcast, which is not necessarily something I would be good at. So I think we’re all contributing in our own ways.

johnny Burke: I just think this work that you’re doing, the life between lives is really, really critically important because these types of sessions and the discovery is going to teach all of us a lot more about why we’re here, what we’re doing here, and what our purpose is and what really happens when we die, as opposed to, going to church and listening to a pastor, basically preach what he’s taught. I know they’re trying to do the right thing, and for many people that’s okay. But I think there’s a lot more of us these days that think, no, there’s more to it than that- there has to be.

Jen Catlin: Absolutely. I was raised religion and in Christianity, and I think at the foundation what I used to sense as a kid, I remember looking around the room and just wondering what is happening. Not everything is making sense and I very clearly remember wondering about that and having those deeper questions. And I remember asking deeper questions and I was never quite fulfilled in the responses I got, didn’t make sense to me. But I think it’s a foundation of all religions. The foundation is there. There’s truth in like a foundation of love and connection with others that there is more. It’s the details and how they’ve been interpreted over time that has shifted. But what I will say is I have a very different experience and perspective that I’ve been able to gain over the years because I have worked with so many people. I’ve been seeing scientists who are very much into science and wanting verified evidence, but they’re noticing like, yes, there’s something more.

I’ve worked with pastors who maybe don’t feel comfortable disclosing right now that there’s more, but they found Michael Newton’s books and it’s opening them up and they’re like, yep, this is what makes sense.

I sat in a church before, right here in North Carolina, and a minister got up in front of the church and apologized to the entire congregation. I didn’t know this was going to happen. This was before I was even into any of this, who said that he used to tell people reincarnation and whatever it is we’re talking about is not possible. Like that’s not what happens. And yet he ended up getting on his own path and doing tons of research and found that there were references to reincarnation originally in the Bible that were removed.

johnny Burke: Oh yeah, that was during the fifth or sixth century, I think.
But if you look back to the research of Ian Stevenson, he was the psychology chair, at the University of Virginia. He discovered he could find children with past life memories that he can actually verify. And I think in over a thousand cases, they were actually able to track down the family and the kid, the child knew so much about the family, including secrets that in many, many cases, the family actually accepted the child as a reincarnation of their loved one who had passed. And

Jen Catlin: Yes.

johnny Burke: In the sixties and seventies and beyond. So,

Jen Catlin: The research that University of Virginia has in their division of perceptual studies is really incredible, and I have met some of those researchers at conferences I’ve attended to. I’ve gone to the IANDS conference and they’re researchers. They’re very objective. That’s very obvious. It’s great because that logical part of my brain also loves to see the evidence and that has helped me over the years. I don’t question anymore like I used to, but I get that people do.

johnny Burke: For what it’s worth, it wasn’t that long ago that I was one of those people. I always knew there was something more, we would go to church. I was brought up Catholic, like a lot of people in the Northeast and I just thought they never talked about reincarnation, and something just seemed off. But that’s probably a question for another day. I think most of in this space have seen enough evidence and testimony where we kind of know it’s real.

Jen Catlin: I’ve had the benefit of working with several people who’ve had near-death experiences in the life between live space. And what I’ve been told is in some of these people, it might have been 30 years after their N D E, when they came upon Michael Newton’s books and like just searching for anything that could explain the experience they had and what I’ve heard over and over again is when they came upon this research and this sort of map of the spirit world the feeling was just excitement because this was the first thing they found that described much of their experience that they had. The research tends to coincide with what people have experienced as well.

johnny Burke: Yep. Very consistent. awesome. Great, great stuff. Anything else we should know?

Jen Catlin: Just knowing, especially for people who are interested in exploring that space with a facilitator, going into the life between life space. If you’ve read Michael Newton’s books, the biggest thing that’s important to know is one, preparation rather than just going into it, we have these human, logical, conscious minds, and so I cannot over emphasize how important preparation going into it is into understanding what hypnosis really feels like.

The books make it sound like a person is completely unconscious and somewhere else, and that’s not how it is. And so just understanding that it’s not always visual, but also knowing that the experience that you have may differ from what you’ve read. And that’s because consciousness is expanding.

Like I said, things are not as linear as they were, and regardless, there is something meaningful that is going to come up for you. And so being able to assess how that’s significant for you and your human life now and your growth as a soul is what is most important.

johnny Burke: Okay. I don’t think I could possibly ever top that. So we’re going to stop here. Jen, thanks so much for joining us today.

Jen Catlin: Sure. Thank you.

johnny Burke: How can our listeners find you online?

Jen Catlin: Yeah, so my website is www.jencatlin.com

#87 Barbara Bartolome: What Near-Death Experiences Can Tell Us

September 17, 2022 by Johnny Burke

Near Death Experiences

#barbarabartolome, #drmarycneal, #IANDS, #nde, #NDERF, #neardeathexperience, #premonition, #reincarnation

Johnny Burke: Welcome to Closer To Venus. I’m Johnny Burke and today’s guest is Barbara Bartolome. She is a double near- death experience survivor and founder and director of the International Association For Near Death Studies group in Santa Barbara, California. She’s been on the NBC Today show, in multiple documentaries, podcasts and radio shows. Today we’ll be talking about how her near death experiences, also referred to NDEs, contributed to her life and what we can learn from those events. Barbara, welcome to the program.

Barbara Bartolome: Thank you, Johnny. I’m happy to be here.

Johnny Burke: The first NDE you had was in 1987 during a medical test. prior to surgery. What happened?

Barbara Bartolome: Having a test prior to surgery. It’s called a myelogram and it is where they inject iodine dye into your spinal cord. And in my case, they did it at the back of my neck. I wasn’t under any anesthesia. I was laying on an x-ray table. They were planning to tip the table and watch as the dye went down my spinal cord to see if the area that I had blown a disc in had chipped the spinal cord. And if spinal fluid was leaking out, because that was going to be a bigger surgery the next day, if they had to address that. So they had me on the table, they told me don’t move whatsoever. Don’t talk or anything because you can have headaches for months afterwards with this situation.

So I was laying there being a good kid and I was 31 years old, and I had a five-month-old baby daughter and an eight-year-old son. And they unfortunately pressed the wrong button on the table to tip it. So they started, tipping it with my head down, lowering my head and raising my feet and they didn’t notice it. The two x-ray techs were talking to each other. The two doctors were talking to each other. It was a neurosurgeon and an orthopedic surgeon that was doing the surgery the next day. And the nurse was distracted as well.

I started feeling like something was really drastically wrong, but I didn’t want to interrupt anybody or cause a problem. And so I stayed quiet too long and by the time that I wanted to say something and interrupt, I couldn’t speak, and I couldn’t reach my hand out to get their attention or do anything. And so I just laid there in a panic. They heard me hyperventilating and they stopped talking the two x-ray texts and the one x-ray tech that had his finger on the button, leaned over my face and saw that my eyes were rolling to the back of my head by then I just couldn’t control my eyes. They just kept on going backwards. And he kind of panicked and leaned backwards and looked where his thumb was on the table and realized with this very shocked look on his face, that he’d made a big mistake. And that was when I checked out, I literally shut my eyes and my body. And the next second I was up on the ceiling.

Johnny Burke: The sequence of when your surgery, the procedure started to when you flatlined, about how long did that take?

Barbara Bartolome: The medical test was happening and they were only a couple minutes into tipping me before I died and was up on the ceiling. Why I know that I flatlined was because the medical professionals that were in the room, the two doctors, they called for the nurse to call for a heart monitor, a defib unit and they immediately started chest compressions and blowing into my mouth. They were doing CPR down below me. I was up on the ceiling, and I was beautifully calm up there. I didn’t feel panicked or worried or upset. I looked down at my body and I said’, huh, if I’m up here and my body’s down there, and that guy is calling code blue and rooms going into a panic, et cetera. I think I just died.

Johnny Burke: So you’re out of your body. You were on the ceiling. There’s been many accounts like this. Because of your involvement with IANDS, you’ve probably heard many accounts, just like yours, which to the us non-experienced sounds like a science fiction movie. Was it true that when you were up there, you didn’t feel really attached to your body? What was that like?

Barbara Bartolome: Yeah, it didn’t feel attached to the body at all. Everything that was me was up on the ceiling, my whole consciousness, everything that I loved and felt, and I felt very calm, very comforted. I felt wrapped in a warm blanket of love. It ended up being about eight to 10 minutes that I was dead- cardiac arrest because they did bring in a heart monitor and I watched my own flatline.

Johnny Burke: While they were doing this, when you came back, what was the first few things that you said to the doctors once you were revived?

Barbara Bartolome: I kind of have to back it up because there’s a whole story up above that happened, that caused me to be resuscitated. So while I was up there, immediately after I said, ‘ uh-huh, I think I’m dead.’ I felt a presence and the presence to me felt like what I would think God was, it felt eternal. It felt totally loving. It felt accepting. I began to say to it how much I wanted to go back into my life. I was giving my children as the reason. I wasn’t begging to go back. I was just saying I needed to go back, to protect my children. I was in an abusive marriage at the time, and I was afraid of what would happen to them if they were left without my interventions in the situations.

As I was talking to that being, I was saying that about four different ways, very calmly. They were doing all of this resuscitation effort down below. They got the heart monitor in, they got the oxygen cart in, they never got the defib unit in. The neurosurgeon ended up saying to the orthopedic surgeon too much time is passed. She’s going to be braindead. We need to do something. At that point, the orthopedic surgeon stepped forward and said, “stand clear” and everybody moved away from the front of the table and he took his arm from behind his back, swung it in a very high arc over his head. His fist came crashing down on my chest – that’s called the pre- cardial thump. And it’s done as the last-ditch effort to restart a heart with a shock, just like a defib would give a shock to the heart. It hardly ever works according to the information online. In that case, it didn’t work the first time.

The being that was next to me finally said something to me. I had been saying how much I wanted to go back into my life. the being’s voice was so incredibly warm and beautiful. Amazing. I can’t possibly imitate it, but what it said was, “but if you go back, you’ll still be in your marriage, what will you do? ” Then I saw all these little film clips that just went flash, flash, flash, flash, flash, flash, flash in front of me that were all of the incidents that I’d had with that current husband. It was like to remind me of what I was facing if I went back. Then I was given all this time to kind of consider now what I did is immediately consider all of the things that I had done to try to change him, to try to help him through his anger issues. They were originating from his childhood and all the things that I presented to help him. I then realized I’d done everything I could. There wasn’t anything more to do.

I then said to the being,” if you let me go back, I promise you I’ll get strong enough to leave him. “And the second I said, the word” him”, I literally shut my eyes up on the ceiling and opened them again. And I was back in my body with the oxygen mask on my face, which they had placed on there after I died.

So I spoke into the oxygen mask and said, ” what just happened?” The nurse leaned over me and said, “stop, don’t talk. We need to stabilize you.” So for 20 minutes I just laid on the table, it was really a shock to be back in my body knowing consciously that I had just been out of my body. I’d never heard of the near-death experience in my entire life. And I’d never heard of anything about being out of the body. Never read anything about it. I was completely in shock. When they finally took the oxygen mask off, I said to the astonished team, “what just happened? I was up on the ceiling, and I could see and hear everything”. And the neurosurgeon, he. said,” Oh brother”. So that made me at 31 years old with never having heard of anything like this before, completely recount what had happened in the room. I pointed at people, told them what they did and said, then the neurosurgeon stormed out of the room. Really angry and said,” I’m not going to listen to this.”

I think it freaked him out. the orthopedic surgeon stayed, and he listened and talked and asked me how I felt and what was it like? And he was more interested in it. I saw him about 20 years later and he told me, “Barbara, you had a near-death experience. That’s absolutely true. And I can’t talk about it because my colleagues and my patients won’t like that if I talk about people’s experiences”. But he said you had it.

Johnny Burke: Let’s talk about what happened up there when you were up on the ceiling, and you talked to this being. I believe the first time we spoke, this being was sitting next to you.

Barbara Bartolome: It was next to me, but it wasn’t sitting. I didn’t ever look to see if there was a physical, like a vision of light, or a face or anything. I felt it really strongly and it was right to my left. I felt exactly like there was someone there. For me it felt like God, I don’t know if it was an angel, I don’t know if it was a spiritual being. I have no idea who it was. I didn’t say” who are you?” I just began talking to it.

Johnny Burke: So you didn’t see it, but you felt it. And was the voice telepathic? could you actually hear it?

Barbara Bartolome: No. Yeah because I wasn’t in my body. And so my ears weren’t working because I wasn’t in my body, but it was telepathic, , he didn’t really say anything or I didn’t hear anything from him or, feel any response until he said, ” but if go back, you’ll still be in your marriage” , I didn’t get a response until after the strike on the heart.

Johnny Burke: I’ve been told many times that people that have these experiences will recount them in vivid detail and remember them many years afterwards. I always ask because I know other people are going to ask me,’ how do you know it wasn’t a dream? ‘Why don’t you tell our listeners why you think it was definitely not a dream.

Barbara Bartolome: Or hallucination. Number one, I wasn’t under any anesthesia. Number two, I completely accurately recounted what the medical professionals in the room did while I was flatlining, my heart stopped. So it wasn’t a hallucination. I accurately described their actions and their words and shocked all of them by coming out immediately and saying it all. Most people who are near death experiencers have an experience and they don’t talk about it right away. I was the one who immediately, validated it with them and shocked them all. In fact, the neurosurgeon, he won’t even talk to me about it to this day. He’s completely closed about the whole subject. It scares the heck out of the guy and it’s something that I know- I was right up there on the ceiling and I was watching the whole thing.

Johnny Burke: I’ve been told several times that when you’re in that position that you were and you’re flat lining,you have no brain function, right? Is that true?

Barbara Bartolome: I’m not sure that the brain is really necessary to keep your consciousness alive because I had every piece of my consciousness up on the ceiling. I didn’t feel any pain in my body when the guy struck me or anything that they were doing. I didn’t feel the oxygen mask on my face down below. No messages from my body. But everything of who I was up on that ceiling, watching them do that to my body. So I know that consciousness isn’t tied to an alive or active brain, as far as I’m concerned. We’re inhabiting these bodies, but we are spiritual beings having a human experience as Pierre Teilhard says- not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are much more than our body.

Johnny Burke: I’ve heard that quite a bit too and I would be inclined to believe that, but if we take the scientific position just for a moment, if someone’s flatlining, they’re dead, which means that you’re not supposed to be able to imagine anything, because you’re dead.

Barbara Bartolome: And that’s where medical Intelligence over the years , that’s what they say. And unfortunately, that’s not the truth. Too many near-death experiences have these amazing experiences outside of their bodies and they are not tied to the dead body that’s down below.

Johnny Burke: I think it makes a pretty strong case for the survival of consciousness. It’s not tied to a physical body. You’ve been involved in several organizations, which we’ll get to, but, IANDS, I believe has documented, is it 900,000 or is it more? documented cases of near death experiences? Probably closer to a million,and I don’t think they’re all making that up.

Barbara Bartolome: Yeah. The thing is that most of us don’t want to talk about it. I didn’t talk about mine for like 12 years. I literally spoke to the doctors about it and asked, “what happened, what happened?” No one would answer me. Then when they took me up to my room and did my surgery the next day when I was in recovery, two doctors approached me to tell me what happened during the surgery. I said”, what happened last night? what was that? “, The neurosurgeon held his hand out in front of me, like “stop.” And he said,” I am not here to talk about that. I’m here to talk about your surgery.”

No one in the hospital would talk to me about it. And when I told my husband at the time, he completely dismissed it and said, “oh, that couldn’t have happened- you probably hallucinated it” well, I’ve never done drugs. I never did anything. I have the cleanest record and I have actually security clearance with the Department of Defense. I don’t have any reason to have been hallucinating or dreaming or anything else. It was an actual experience and I cherish it big time because it literally helped guide me away from the situation that I was in in my life. And I did end up leaving my husband and I did end up finding a very much happier life down the road with my husband than I’ve been married to for 30 years now. I felt planted in my life at that time to get me out of a very dangerous situation with my marriage.

Johnny Burke: And speaking of NDEs, you had one in your childhood, but at the time you didn’t know what it was. Can you tell us a little bit about how that happened?

Barbara Bartolome: I actually was only about 18 months old. I had never told my family about my near-death experience. I kept it very quiet inside my heart. It was as fresh every day. If I ever took it out and looked at it myself. I remembered every second of it, but it wasn’t like I was going to talk to people about it.In Santa Barbara, I owned a business and I’d been named businesswoman of the year., I didn’t want people to think there was weird things going on in Barbara’s head or something. So I kept it really quiet.

I had been to the IANDS conference in 2009 and I’d heard PMH Atwater speak and she’s a researcher for near-death experiences, very broadly known. She had been talking about the aftereffects and I had not ever heard that there were after-effects. When I heard these, I was very confused after her talk. And I thought why are they saying those are aftereffects? I’ve had those all the way back to my childhood. And I had my NDE at age 31. So after her talk, I approached her and said,” please explain to me how that could happen.” She held my hands and she said,” my dear, I think that you ought to check in with your family to see if anyone there knows of anything that happened to you when you were young because I believe that you probably had an earlier life NDE. ” so I thought at the time, oh brother, now somebody thinks I’ve had two of these?

I decided when I saw my brother the next time that I would ask him, but I didn’t want to tell him about my NDE ahead of time to give him that information. So I said,” Hey, I’m doing this kind of a booklet thing of all of my medical history. So that in case I’m ever in the hospital or something, they can have this notebook of all the information about my medical background. And my brother said,” I don’t know. Let me think about it.” Then after we had dinner, he stopped me outside the restaurant and he said,” Barbie, there’s something that I need to tell you and I’ve always felt like I should tell you. But the parents made us promise back when it happened that we would never discuss it with you, and we wouldn’t tell you. When you were 18 months, you had a really high fever, you were sick with something, I don’t know what it was, and the parents were really concerned and worried.”

What ended up happening was that I went into convulsions, and I stopped breathing. So my father immediately called the fire department, and my mom was holding me and crying, and my little sister was in my mom’s tummy still, so my little sister was about to be born and my mom was going to lose her little one. The fire department ended up telling my dad to put me into the bathtub in tepid bathwater, then slowly at ice cubes to slowly lower my body temperature while they sent the ambulance over to our house. My brothers were sent by my mom to go to the neighbor’s house, rush, rush to get more ice.

And when my brother came back, he said” you were soft, purple, lifeless, not breathing and he said he was so scared.” As he was standing there watching, he said,” you self-resuscitated. All of a sudden, you arched your back and came back alive and took this deep breath in, and that turned you from purple to red. Then you just burst out crying and you were crying really hard.” And the ambulance people pulled up in front of the house, came into our home and wrapped me up in a blanket and took me off the hospital. ” he said I was there for like four days. He said the parents didn’t want to ever talk about it. They said, never speak to me about it.

I realized that with that information and the aftereffects that I then knew about that my childhood fell right into place for me, because there were a lot of things that had happened during my childhood, that my parents thought was weird, and people that were friends of mine thought were weird. There were intuition moments, there were all sorts of things, and, I never could figure out why they’d happened, and I didn’t know why I was different, but that totally answered it okay now I understand I’ve got intuition. Yeah.

Johnny Burke: So that happened when you were 18 months?

Barbara Bartolome: 18 months old. Yeah.

Johnny Burke: I’ve noticed that people that have had these experiences talk about an increased level of intuition. And I even had Robert Bare- speaking of IANDS, who was on the show a while back. He had a near-death experience where he was out for like 45 minutes. He remembered seeing a very huge uptick in these abilities, including mediumistic type abilities, which he told me” I didn’t want it.” Could it be that your childhood.experience kind of elevated it or those abilities would’ve been there anyway?

Barbara Bartolome: No, I definitely think it elevated it and, and it was something I didn’t understand, my parents didn’t understand, my siblings. No one understood it. I would have these incidents where I didn’t realize for quite a long time until I was older, that I should hide them. I shouldn’t talk about them. I shouldn’t let people know. When the phone rang, I blurted out who was calling and would be accurate every time, and my mom would look at me with this really strange look on her face.

When I was like five years old, I was studying on a street corner and my intuition told me that there was going to be a car accident. So I broke the grip on my mom’s hand, and I put my hands over my face to cover my face. My mom didn’t like that because we were supposed to hold her hands. My little three-year-old sister, and myself. She looked down at me and said, “what are you doing? I said, through my hands, “they’re going to crash” and right after I said, a car ran the red light and T-boned the car in the intersection. And my mom kneeled down and shook me a little bit and she said,” I don’t ever want you to tell anyone that you can do that. ” So it was scary to her that I had those gifts and I learned to hide them, but there were times when I didn’t hide them and bad things kind of happened.

I remember in high school I was like 17, and my friends drank beer. I would go with them to a party but I didn’t drink I’d always be the driver home. What ended up happening was that the police stormed the party. And I saw before they got there that they were coming up the roadway to the place we were at. I didn’t know the people that lived there- it was their son that was having the party and the people were off for the weekend. So no one knew beforehand that this was going to happen and the police came and I actually got enough warning that I took my friends and dragged them off into the underbrush nearby the driveway and saved them from getting arrested for underage drinking . That caused one of them to question me. She ended up saying at school on the following Monday that I was a witch because I said, “well, I saw that they were coming.” So she assumed I was a witch. So I had to deal with that in high school; people saying things to me and questioned me and stuff and it was hard.

Johnny Burke: That must have been difficult, and I can see why your mother would tell you don’t ever tell anybody that you have that ability. So would you call that what you just described, is that a psychic ability or is that premonition?

Barbara Bartolome: I think it’s called premonition or precognition. I’m not exactly up on all of that, but it’s happened so darn many times to me that it’s just normal. When I get those hits, I listen. I have this incredible one that happened in 2016 and my husband that I’m married to for the last 30 years, he really understands this, and he gets it and he trusts it. We were driving back from San Francisco where I had given four talks up at the IANDS groups in San Francisco and we were coming back to Santa Barbara. And just north of the city there’s this coastline that the highway comes along, and it was really super windy. This one gust of wind, I saw my husband struggling with the steering wheel. So I said, “Hey, why don’t we slow down from 65 down to like 50? , I think we should slow down. “And he said, “yeah, I think so, too. “And then a couple minutes later, I heard in my ear- I actually heard a voice that said ” danger, big impact ahead.”

So I sat up in my seat and I checked my seatbelt and then I told my husband,” I just heard from the other side there’s a big impact ahead- danger. Could be a tree that’s blown down, or could be a car that’s spun out of control- I don’t know what it is, but we need to slow down more. We need to do like 30 miles an hour.” And my husband looked at me and said,” well, Barbara, we’re on the freeway. We can’t do that.” And I turned around and looked through our van and there were no lights behind us, no cars coming. And so I said,” well, nobody’s around us, so nobody’s going to care if we’re doing 30. So we went for about 10 minutes doing 30 miles an hour. And we came around a corner, and saw a police car way up in the dark way ahead of us. And I immediately knew that was where the danger was. the police car had stopped squarely in the slow lane. He’d gotten out of his car and he climbed up on the side of the semi-truck that had tipped over because the wind had blown it out of control and the dirty bottom of the truck was facing us. So we couldn’t actually see the truck. We could only see the car with the lights on -the police car.

Coming up in the slow lane, behind the police car, and having to change lanes. And right when that happened, whoever it was from the other side that was helping grabbed both of my upper arms. I kid you not, I’m not lying about this. Literally I felt grips on both of my upper arms, and I felt a face come nose to nose with me and whoever it was screamed, “10 miles an hour! I completely echoed that to my husband because I was freaked out that I was being squeezed. My husband slowed down. He just changed lanes. So now he was in the fast lane going past the police car and about 20 feet past the police car, our lights finally lit up the semi-truck and the cab was right in front of us. We would’ve hit that, and it would’ve probably blown up the gas tanks because that’s where the gas tanks are. I immediately started saying thank you to the other side right after we got past it.

My husband about 10 minutes later was completely quiet. Then he said, “Barbara, how do you do this?” And I said, “you know what, Victor, it’s not me. I do listen to the other side. And I think if everybody did, they’d get a big benefit in life. ” What you think is your intuition might not be intuition. It might be assistance from the other side. So I always listen- I listen to them and I’m not scared of them at all. I’m always grateful.

Johnny Burke: Pretty incredible story. You’ve also given grand rounds talks at some of the hospitals and I believe it’s featured in a D V D for medical professionals to learn about NDEs. How important is it for the medical profession to accept and understand that NDEs are real?

Barbara Bartolome: Absolutely important. My example of an NDE and then voicing it to those people that were present. None of them admitted at the time, ‘hey Barbara, you had an NDE. ‘I don’t know back in 1987, if they knew what an NDE was. But nowadays a lot of people, medical professionals included have heard of these. So when someone has one, they just simply need to say that’s called a near-death experience and there’s a lot of information online. There are websites and organizations that help people to acclimate to this situation that you’ve just had. They don’t have to say that they believe in it or that they don’t believe in it. Just give the patient the best care possible by telling them what it is and saying there’s information out there. That’s all they need to do.

Johnny Burke: I think that’s as good advice on that as anyone’s going to get. Of course, there’s going to be pushback from some people that maybe their pastor or the people at their church say ‘those things are not real’, which I think it’s kind of sad, really.

Barbara Bartolome: Well, I’ve spoken at churches, and they’ve completely wanted me to come and talk there and they’ve been very open and accepting of it. So it depends on how the church is led.

Johnny Burke: It depends on the type of church -we have the Unitarian church, then we even Spiritualist churches that have mediums in them.

Barbara Bartolome: When I talked to Salt Lake City, the whole room, 150 people were all Mormons , or mostly all Mormons. They believe in near-death experiences. The problem that I see is that a lot of religions believe God is dead. They don’t believe God’s really present currently here and capable of impacting our lives and helping us and doing things with us. And it’s just really sad because I realize strongly that he’s alive.

Johnny Burke: Let’s talk about what we’ve all learned from these organizations like IANDS, the Afterlife Research and Education Institute (AREI)and the Near-Death Experience Research Foundation.(NDERF)

Barbara Bartolome: Well, I think that the NDEs are teaching us to help us grow our souls here on earth. I think that’s kind of our purpose to be here when we incarnate. I think that we’re given all these challenges and, aspects of our life that we need to learn from. And I think that that’s why we’re here. One of the things that I really strongly believe in and have all my life now is the idea of reincarnation. I feel very strongly that we’re here multiple times and that each time we probably choose a particular life, our parents, our siblings, what’s going to happen to us. And we end up coming into our life and growing our souls and learning and then going back, what I call home.

I don’t believe there’s a heaven in a hell. I’m really sorry, but I don’t. I feel like it’s just home where we came from and I always use a heart for the O on home because I think it’s just full of love, which is what I think God really represents to the world is that he’s there, he’s helping us grow our souls and he’s there when we return home again. And all this other stuff that’s been written in the Bible, I think some of it can be true and some of it can be man’s interjection into the whole thing.

Yeah. I really feel we have a purpose in our lives. So I really feel that we come here with an idea of something that we want to accomplish, and a lot of the NDEers talk about how when they were faced with their near-death experience, they realized that their purpose wasn’t completed yet. And I felt that same thing when I was out of my body.

Johnny Burke: The near-death experiences seems to be that portal to the beginning of the life- death- reincarnation cycle because it gives us a glimpse of what our purpose is, and whether we fulfilled it or not. There’s been many accounts where people say they went through something similar to what you did and they were told,’ no, you got to go back- you’re not done yet.’

Barbara Bartolome: A beautiful one is Dr. Mary Neal, who was in a river rafting accident in a kayak. And on the other side, when she was out of her body, she was sitting in a beautiful meadow, and she said that Jesus was sitting next to her on a rock. She wanted to stay even though she had four children and a lovely husband who was a doctor, she wanted to stay. She said it was so incredibly wonderful to be there next to him and be on the other side. He told her that her oldest son, Willie was going to have a terrible accident at, I think it was age 18. And that she needed to return to her life because she needed to be there and help the community that they lived in -Jackson Hole, Wyoming, to come to grips with the situation that had happened to her son. And in fact, he was hit by a distracted driver, at age 19 and he was killed. That was something that she needed to come forward and help the community to understand, not be angry and upset with this distracted driver, that it had been planned long before the accident happened and that this was Willie’s choice to leave at that time.

She also was told that her husband was going to have a major medical issue that he wouldn’t detect ahead of time and that she needed to be there otherwise the children would lose him as well. That happened as well. So we’re here for a purpose. We’re here to contribute to others’ lives. We’re here to do the best that we possibly can. And I really look forward to seeing the final video of my life. When I get to see the rerun of my life and look at the places where I contributed to other people and see how that branched out and touched other people’s lives beyond that. The whole aspect of my life has been volunteering and helping others and finding people that need assistance and finding a way to help. That’s what I do.

Johnny Burke: excellent. I think experiences like this really does give us a glimpse of what really happens when we finally make that transition. So, Barbara, thanks so much for joining us. Excellent information. How can our listeners learn more about you online?

Barbara Bartolome: They can Google Barbara Bartolome NDE. On YouTube, you’re going to get a lot of videos. You’re going to get a beautiful documentary by a French film producer named Anthony Chen and of course, this wonderful podcast audio right now today with Johnny Burke!

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