#christconsciousness Archives

#115 Betty Kovacs: A God Outside Us

April 1, 2023 by Johnny Burke

#bettykovacs, #christconsciousness, #deadseascrolls, #gnosis, #gnostics, #godoutsideus, #mystics, #naghammaditexts

Johnny Burke: Welcome to Closer to Venus. I’m Johnny Burke, and today’s guest is Betty Kovacs. She has a Ph.D. in comparative literature, and the theory of symbolic, mythic language. She’s also the author of Merchants of Light, the Consciousness That Is Changing The World, as well as The Miracle Of Death There’s Nothing But Life. Today we will discuss the God outside of us. Betty, welcome to the show.

Betty Kovacs: Thank You.

Johnny Burke: I wanted to mention at the end of our last episode, you mentioned the Nag Hammadi text, which shows us that Jesus wanted to give us a blueprint for our awakening. Now, for those people that didn’t hear that episode, can you give us a brief recap?

Betty Kovacs: Yes, the Nag Hammadi texts were found in Egypt. after World War II and we know that they had been buried in the later part of the fourth century when the church finally gained power and made Christianity the religion of the empire. And of course it began to destroy all other spiritual traditions and temples and mystery schools.

So we know that the monks at Nag Hammadi were visited by representatives from the church, and they were told either that they had to destroy these manuscripts, these texts, or they would destroy them when they came back through. Well, the monks thankfully buried them and let the church believe that they had destroyed them.

They were found just accidentally after World War II just as earlier texts called the Dead Sea Scrolls from the Jews were found also after World War II. Now with the Nag Hammadi text, the reason we’re so grateful to have them is that they reveal a Jesus that is loving and kind and beautiful as the gospels in the church canon, but he is more than that. What he makes very clear in this is that we have the mental capacity, you might say, the brain components to connect with the divine from within. He said I came to remind you of who you are, not to save you. That was never the intention of dying to save someone else. First of all, it is impossible to save someone else on the outside by dying for them or anything else.

Jesus says, I have come to remind you. You’ve forgotten who you are. And it was very clear when he had these visions and with Mary Magdalena and he explained to her of how this is possible. You go within. And this is wonderful because, from the time the church took over, there were 1600 years actually in which the Christians of that period, not the earlier Christians, always believed in a God outside. And as long as there’s some kind of divinity outside of us, what do we do ?That divinity is beyond us, it’s more than us. And of course in Christianity, it wasn’t even here within us and within nature, it was separated. God was in heaven somewhere, and then Jesus had to go back there. Now, I’m not saying that the Gospels aren’t beautiful, they are, but they do not show the true intent of Jesus.

Johnny Burke: It’s very interesting. What I did not recognize right away is that the church actually told the people that discovered the Nag Hammadi texts, that they had to destroy them. They were not allowed to exist.

Betty Kovacs: That was earlier. That was in the fourth century when the church first gained power. The church representatives were going all over that known area where Christianity was and there were monasteries and so on. And so they made it clear to the monks in Nag Hammadi in the fourth century that if they had any texts that weren’t the official narrative, that they would be destroyed.

Johnny Burke: So they did go around to the different camps and the different settlements in the cities and said, this is our narrative. You have to stick to it. If you have any other textbooks, throw them out

Betty Kovacs: That’s right. Severe censorship. I think that for some reason or other, we don’t comprehend that history even when it’s told to us. The church went on a vicious campaign for hundreds of years, really, but from the get-go of destroying temples and monasteries or any text; Arabic texts, Christian texts, Gnostic texts, any text that didn’t go along with their official narrative.

That is God is outside you; Jesus is God’s son, he has come to die for us, save us, and we worship him outside of us. There is a tradition called a secret tradition that Jesus taught. And early Christians, many of them were very aware of that because it was very clear that Jesus was a visionary, a mystic -one who had achieved Christ Consciousness or cosmic consciousness, and he wanted others to know that we all have that capacity. So the secret tradition that Jesus taught was the way of the mystic, the visionary within.

Johnny Burke: We hear that a lot today; the answers are within, they’re not outside of you. They’re within. When we do just that- we meditate, we get into that space. We can discover a lot about ourselves, in some cases past lives and connections or channeling and things like that. Have you had any type of intuitive experiences like that?

Betty Kovacs: I spent so much of my life trying to figure out these things and so for a long time I was doing it through the study of text and different traditions and that sort of thing. And then when I finished my doctorate, I went to Peru, and so that was kind of learning from shamans, going to these various places on the earth that were considered sacred in Peru and meditating and working with sacred medicine because the shamanic tradition for over 40,000 years has worked with sacred medicine in various ways. Other places have for instance, a sand bushman in Africa since it’s desert. They developed other techniques of going within through the heart and opening to that vastness that is within us.

That began when I was in South America, but it really wasn’t until our son was killed in a car accident that both my husband who had not been involved in these things, and I began to experience his consciousness. And I would say it was at that point that for both of us, everything changed because we began to realize the vastness within us that Yahweh had glimpses of, but, but nothing like we experienced after his.

Johnny Burke: So that type of thing, when you were able to experience someone else’s consciousness, in this case of your son, I know we’ve talked about this before, it’s, it’s very sad, but at the same time, from that kind of contact, would that be considered, after death communication, or not necessarily?

Betty Kovacs: yes, yes, it is. And some people experience it through mediums and others have signs. I’ve talked with many, many people since then. In fact, we have a group, Kamlak Center that has a group in which people come together, and talk about the experiences they’ve had, the kinds of, it just incredible ways of experiencing people who have gone already through the other side.

Even though I had been involved in this all my life, I was trained in the university, so I had a lot of doubts and skepticism you might say. But it was interesting that my son knew that and there were things that he did or said to my husband that made me know that it was him, you know? So there were, he, he really played those tricks with me because he knew I had to have that kind of, confirmation, you might say.

Johnny Burke: I’m trying to make the connection here; you seem to have some kind of capacity to go within and experience the vastness. More and more I hear whenever I talk to intuitives, mediums, whatever they want to call themselves, they almost always say, anyone can do this. It’s not a gift, we’re born with it, but some people have it closer to the surface than others. But if you work on it, we can all learn to go within, as you say. Would you agree?

Betty Kovacs: I agree with that, and I think that yes, we all have that capacity, but the history of the western world has been to dumb that down, and I think these organs with which we can perceive the vast consciousness that we are born out of have atrophied in the west. I don’t think we have any notion of how much that, right brain, that symbolic, poetically logical brain that feeds the left brain has been just shunned, demeaned, devalued, and it has atrophied in some way as a culture. The right brain connects with the higher centers of the brain and the heart. What our generation has to do is to jumpstart them, and realize, yeah, there are difficulties here. Most of us are going to have difficulties. But this is our generation, all of us together today that are trying to reactivate them and connect with who we are.

Johnny Burke: And that has, a bit to do with ascension, I would think, so let’s circle back to the Nag Hammadi texts. With your intuitive skills- which are not as atrophied as the rest of us, when you discovered this, did it hit you in a different way where you knew it was absolute truth and it was not a work of fiction? What was it like?

Betty Kovacs: By that time I had been studying early history, early Christianity, and I knew the ancient world, even before Christianity, because my specialty was in myth and symbol, and symbolic language. So I had come across many great mystics before and they all were saying the same thing, and they were all getting in touch with this vastness. So I knew that that was possible. I hadn’t been able to do it at that point, and I suspected that Jesus was precisely such a person, but I was absolutely blown away when I realized that these texts are our evidence. You know? And the church would never allow anyone openly to experience the vastness of who we are. The Gnostics who had these experiences? heretics and excommunicated. Some of the great mystics were threatened with excommunication.

I wasn’t surprised, but I was delighted to discover that text had been found. Now, we also, of course, found around the same time that Dead Sea Scrolls. Now, the church did a lot to keep those from being published because it did give a different view. Same with the Nag Hammadi, but here are Jews around the Dead Sea who were mystics who did not go along with the Second Temple because they, as the church later did away with this mysticism.

The first temple had been a shaman mystic tradition. In fact, Jesus was probably the rebirth of that in Judaism. But when I found the Dead Sea Scrolls, here are mystics who didn’t go along with this outside God, and so I was becoming aware that their mystics all over the world who don’t go along with that. But the western world had been especially bad about it. In fact, they had thwarted our evolution by saying that God is outside of us instead of within us, we are that consciousness.

Johnny Burke: That seems to be consistent with this statement: Christ wanted us to become him.

Betty Kovacs: That was exactly the Nag Hammadi message and the church, that was Jesus’ secret tradition that he taught when he was alive. If indeed he was historical -and I think he was such a person, but he taught that always to go inward, but the church had flipped him around and made him a God outside of us, so it negated his message.

Johnny Burke: Instead of going inward, you have to focus on an external object when it’s already part of you anyway. I think it’s also interesting about the Mormons; apparently, they do believe that a mortal man can become a God.

Is that in line with don’t follow me, become me?

Betty Kovacs: Yes. As a matter of fact, we are all divine. We are as one, quantum physicist says today is that we realize now we are born out of this divine consciousness. We are the manifestation of divinity, and we are co-creators with it. So it’s not that we become a God, we are divine, and that’s what our ancestors tried to teach us: we are immortal, our consciousness continues. We are divine and we are creative. So we are the manifestation and co-creators. So to become God is really to realize who we are.

Johnny Burke: So that is pretty much consistent. It’s just another way of saying the same thing.

Betty Kovacs: It’s a deep recognition that with the big bang or the big breath, we’re all it, we are part of that. We just come to a realization of who we are.

Johnny Burke: Many of the intuitives talk about a love and even a relationship with Jesus, but disavow any allegiance to any manmade religion, church or otherwise dogma. What do you suppose that is?

Betty Kovacs: I think that first of all, we know that love is the ground of being that breath is love. That’s a ground of being in every sense of the word. And I think of course that there are those who have achieved that consciousness. Jesus was a symbol and perhaps a historical person as well who had achieved that consciousness A mystic can certainly get in touch with these great beings on the other side. They can call him Jesus. Perhaps it is Jesus. Perhaps it’s other names or no names. I think that in the visionary state we often are aware of this vast love, and if someone then embodies it, it even temporarily then yes, there’s that profound love relationship

Johnny Burke: I’ve also noticed some of the people that I’ve talked to claim to have either communicated with Jesus and other ascended masters as well, like Yogananda for instance. Some have even claimed to have seen him, where there is another camp of mediums- it’s usually mediums that are kind of skeptical and funny as that sounds, they think. ” Oh, wait a minute. They didn’t talk to Jesus. That’s just their ego.” What are your thoughts on that?

Betty Kovacs: Well, I think it could be a lot of things, I suppose, for the individual who has that experience, you simply know, and it doesn’t matter what anyone else says. That’s what Gnosis means; when you experience that truth within you, that’s it. You don’t have to have validation for the outside. My experience is I haven’t had names for people, but I have experienced vast entities on the other side. And my husband did too. And I remember saying to my son after he had passed, I I wanted to know more about this particular entity. As a matter of fact, there was a name, it was Sheira in Hungarian and Sira in English. And my husband just became aware suddenly that she had been present all along. So I said to myself, what I don’t really understand is that she was very much like what was imagined as the earth mother, but she was so much more than that. And my son gave this answer. He said, “oh mom, her body covers galaxies.”

Johnny Burke: Wow.

Betty Kovacs: And I guess it was a way of trying to get me to know her now. I thought, how strange. But do you know the interesting thing is I was reading-I can’t think of her name right now. A woman who’s done a lot of work with children who are highly perceptive in that. And one of them said- and this just knocked me up, we are from places where the entity’s bodies are larger than galaxies. Can you imagine? When I heard these children use that same terminology, I have to be open to something I hadn’t thought of before. This vastness.

Johnny Burke: And these are children, I imagine what, seven, eight years old? They weren’t teenagers,

Betty Kovacs: No, no. They were very young and they seemed to insist that they were from other dimensions of reality and they had come to help the earth because we’re going through this crucial transformation and that’s what they said, it’s interesting.

Johnny Burke: What’s interesting about that, I was just talking to a spiritual hypnotist, Steven Towill very, very interesting guy. And one of the things he talked about was with children; they often don’t have to be hypnotized to remember past lives. So what you just said actually is believable because kids up to a certain age can easily recall past lives and experiences like you just described. Then they hit a certain age where it just kind of turns off.

Betty Kovacs: This is absolutely true and verified. Hundreds and hundreds of times, Ian Stevenson worked with these children who knew their past lives. They know in detail; they know their parent’s names. They know the city where they lived, they know the address, and Ian Stevenson’s work was going right with those children to those places and confirming how they died or were murdered.

Johnny Burke: Was that Dr. Ian Stevenson?

Betty Kovacs: Yes, I mean, he’s the original one and there’ve been so many since who’ve done this work, but it’s absolutely true. At a certain point, all that detail is gone. I have no memory of remembering anything or no one telling me I did, when I was young, but many of these children do.

Johnny Burke: Now, when you were young, did you have any type of experiences like that where maybe you sensed or saw spirits or had communication with, beyond the veil?

Betty Kovacs: No, no. I have to say I didn’t. I lived in nature too. My brother and I were always out in nature playing. Of course, I was in the south and my parents didn’t go to church, but they were open to anything, and we went to church and that sort of thing. It was when I just could not believe it. I love the stories of Jesus. I think Jesus, the image, the symbol of the beauty of his life, his honesty, his love, his care for people. That became a powerful image within me, but at a point, I could not believe. And so that began my search intellectually to try to discover historically what had taken place.

But it wasn’t until later, and especially after our son died, and he said at one point to me, you and dad needed to keep yourself on ice until I died because you needed to-

Johnny Burke: I am sorry, I’m trying not to laugh at this, your son’s name, was it Pisti ? sounds like he’s got now a sense of humor,

Betty Kovacs: Oh, he always had, yes, he was more serious with me and the visions, but he and his dad had quite a sense of humor together. But it was funny because I spent my life studying it, but it wasn’t really to be until he died that it just opened up and he wanted us to know his consciousness is very much alive, still creating, but he also wanted us to know what’s going on the earth and the years coming because according to him, we chose to come in at this time in this dimension.

Johnny Burke: Does he share any insight into what is coming up for us, whether there are obstacles or whatever they are?

Betty Kovacs: It seemed to be that we see many obstacles and I spent a tremendous time in researching what had happened in the western world of why we are in a pathological state, you might say, in the western world and now the world and how all of this censorship has created the darkness of those who’ve gone outside themselves.

When we go outside ourselves, we don’t have that power within, so we want to control others and we see that what we’re up against now is 2000 years of censorship and going outside so that we have people who have no concept of their potential of that we are it and they want to control us, and they’ve become very clever at doing it and censoring our knowledge of it. So I think that although he wasn’t specific, I have felt myself guided always to find this out.

Johnny Burke: So for those who don’t go within to find answers, it sounds like they’re empty. They feel the need to control others.

Betty Kovacs: Yes. They find their meaning outside themselves. In the Nag Hammadi text, one of the sayings of Jesus, which I love, is that-and it’s so true, if you bring forth what is within you it will save you, but if you do not bring forth what is within you, it will destroy you.

Johnny Burke: I remember you telling me that.

Betty Kovacs: And that’s what I think we see. I used to always think all these men were saying, we have to get rid of our ego. No, the ego has just flipped the wrong side out. The ego is to reflect this great self within, but when we don’t develop it, of course, it’s going to flip into the outer world. If we believe in outer meaning, it’s going to snatch and grab every single thing again to make itself look good. There’s no problem with ego. Once we have the inner experiences, then the ego takes its rightful place.

Johnny Burke: It would explain why so many people- people that are a little bit more enlightened that have done the homework, say the answers are within, they’re not outside of you.

Betty Kovacs: They absolutely are. I just want to say as quickly as I can, what is so important is that Jesus recognized, although we wouldn’t have called it that -the right brain. And the right brain and left brain need to work together.

The right brain is our first language. It develops before the left brain, and it’s symbolic, and it is poetically logical. It feeds the left brain. Now, the early Christians said that if you have experience with the other side, it’s symbolic; its language is symbolic. But what these Christians did, they didn’t understand all of that, and they didn’t understand the great mystery schools, which were initiations into the inner experience.

There were many gods before the dying and reviving gods. This was symbolic of the human psyche. Since the Christians then didn’t understand symbolic language, they made Jesus historical. No. There were many gods, you might say, who came before, who are symbols of our psyche, our own psyche of coming into life, dying to what we knew and being reborn again into our new consciousness. There were so many, 33 of them, I think have been discovered that have really been written about.

So Jesus, even if he were historic, he probably was. He was a symbol of the human soul psyche. But the Christians didn’t understand that, and they made him historical. And there’s only one God at one time in one place. Well, all of the people of his time knew that wasn’t true. But the church did everything it could to create an official narrative in which that was true. But the people in the ancient world knew that it was symbolic as well as literal. Jesus is a symbol for Christ is a symbol of us.

Johnny Burke: How do you explain this to someone who goes to church, has good intentions, wants to find spirituality, wants to find a community, goodness, and love; how do you explain this to them? Or do you not even bother because the obstacles they have in front of them in order to understand it, are just too large?

Betty Kovacs: Well, there are many Christians who are very loving, kind people and they have this love for Jesus and they’re loving the image, and I think that’s a good thing. But usually, most of them are not seeking any other answers because this works for them. And one has to say, well, it is love, and if we can extend that love to others other than Jesus, ourselves, and others, it’s a good thing. But it’s such a shame that we don’t really understand who we are and that they don’t really want to know. Many of them don’t want to know because that works for them.

Johnny Burke: Good point. As if they were saying, I know what I know, I believe what I believe. Don’t confuse me with the facts!

Betty Kovacs: Yeah, it’s kind of that way..

Johnny Burke: What you just described is pretty much the state of the churchgoers where it works for them and they don’t want any other answers, but there’s more and more people that are looking for answers. They are looking within, they are doing the research, they go to mediums, they want to learn about the history of the mystics, the true history, the one that the church has been repressing for hundreds of years. I’d like to be able to explain that to people, but every time I’ve tried to do so, I always come to the conclusion, why did I even bring that up?

Betty Kovacs: There is a danger in this process because Christianity has always said it is the only true religion. And anytime someone in a religion says that they haven’t gone within, because there is not one true approach. There are many ways to the divine. You can call it by many names, but there is not one approach. That has been socially and politically extremely dangerous. That we are the only ones; that sense of superiority is very, very dangerous. that is pretty much saturated the Christian tradition today. But that wasn’t in the beginning. The early Christians knew that this is a symbol of who we are and our path. And the Sufi mystics were also finding their path.

There have been great, reformers all the way through our history who’ve tried to get us to realize, look, why are the Protestants and Catholics fighting, or Muslims and Christians? If you go to the heart of it, we are all the same. We are all at that.

Johnny Burke: I’ve heard that an awful lot. I even had someone say recently when you look at another person and maybe they don’t agree with you, or maybe they’re just out there being very irritating and whatever, look at them as if you were looking at yourself because at the end of the day, we all came from source and we are sparks of the same light.

Betty Kovacs: We are all connected, and quantum physics knows that it’s all one.
So did the early Christians, and so does every spiritual tradition that has experienced it. Is it? It’s one. Yeah. And if there’s cancer in part of us, we need to be concerned with it.

Johnny Burke: I agree. And speaking of cancer, let’s talk about the effect of the outside God on how our society is structured today. There’s an increasing amount of divisiveness in the political theater and there’s certain people that are aligning themself with God, and I’m thinking it just seems off. What are your thoughts?

Betty Kovacs: I think it’s always, a problem when someone is saying that we are aligned with God, and it is God’s will. That we kill you or that we do whatever. The most atrocious things have been attributed to God’s decisions. No,it has divided society from the beginning in the western world and the ancient world. There could be many traditions and initiations. They were aware of this vast oneness and nature. They wanted to know the laws of nature of the universe and also know their own psyche, their own soul. The stories of who we are are true stories that are actually organized by the organizing principles of the human psyche. They follow laws and every true story tells us how to evolve. The Genesis story about not eating the fruit is a falsification of the most horrible order. That story is a false story. Never would a divine being say, I do not want you to know. Have this conscious right and wrong or whatever,

Johnny Burke: I’m sorry. I don’t mean to laugh, but it’s kind of ridiculous when you think about it.

Betty Kovacs: It’s so ridiculous, but you know, when we are brainwashed, it’s irrational and ridiculous that we seem to believe. These technocrats today are saying we’re flawed. Human beings are flawed, and we can fix this through nanomedicine and AI and all of these things, and we’ll control you, but we can fix it. But they have no concept. That one falsification of the true story in which God shows us the tree and offers the fruit to us to one who’s denying it. It has done so much damage, but my point is that true stories always are for our evolution, and we can recognize them because they are always positive and to help us grow and develop.

Johnny Burke: So there is some credence to that theory that the politicians, for instance, that align themselves with certain groups, they’re basically leveraging that belief in an outside God; if you believe in God, you will vote for us .

Betty Kovacs: Which is crazy as if there are a whole bunch of gods somewhere, and I know the true gods, you don’t. It is ignorance of the first order and the fact that it has continued for so long is sad. Very sad. We need to find our true stories and allow that development to take place and work together. And of course, a politician is going to do everything he can to divide us, so that we will be fighting with each other and not see what they’re doing- the force behind the force and get the power that way. it’s an old trick and it seems to keep working

Johnny Burke: It really does. I just always thought that was a red flag when certain religious groups would attach themselves to a particular political figure.

I knew that once I saw- I can’t remember what news channel it was, but these people were literally praying at a voting station and I thought, we are lost. That is so wrong it’s comical, but

Betty Kovacs: Because we know in our recent history that very often the groups that say they are religious and caring and spiritual, often align themselves with someone who’s totally not.

Johnny Burke: We’re seeing that now without question.

Betty Kovacs: It’s so true. We have to look kind of hard to find now because we’ve all been kind of debased with this politically, is to find those who were what we thought they were, you know?

Johnny Burke: Hopefully we will. We talked before briefly about how you were able to communicate with Pisti and I believe your husband; they both unfortunately passed. Having that confirmation that when we leave this earth, we don’t really die. Does that fortify your other beliefs and everything else we spoke about? Jesus and going within and not worshiping a God outside of us?

Betty Kovacs: Well, it absolutely does because once you have those experiences, suddenly it’s like, oh. you remember, and even my husband who had not been interested after his first vision, it’s that knowing that is so deep and I wish that it were easy now for me to go into those states. I am trying to repair these abilities you know, as much as anyone else. But after Pisti died I think our hearts were so broken open and we did use rituals. We sometimes worked with sacred medicine or not. My husband said on the way to work, it was like a tape recorder going off. Everything he had to remember, remember that he had put on ice for all these years. So I think that that opened us up. I feel it and I know their direction. I wish that I could be more in tune, more easily. I think we’re all working on that, but I have no doubt whatsoever and absolutely no fear of death. None of it. I don’t want to be sick.

Johnny Burke: We’re in no rush. I think it’s always to underscore that belief when it does come up because if it does, it’s not something we avoid. I think the question for a lot of people is, especially when they lose someone, what happens to them? Am I ever going to see them again? And I’ve heard again and again that we do apparently reunite with our loved ones when we go to the other side.

Betty Kovacs: Oh, absolutely. And I think that there are many different frequencies on the other side, and we find the frequency that we can live in.

I have had an experience of frequency so high, so powerful that I knew that that was not my frequency. And I know it exists. But then we find our own frequencies. But I think that those in the higher frequencies can visit us in the other. But I think what we want to do here is to try to intensify that inner potential to reach higher frequencies.

The book Merchants of Light is based on the vision that my husband had and I that these are beings who aren’t being born on the earth now who have a higher frequency, and it’s also an energy field that now has been attached to the earth, which makes it easier for us to increase our frequencies and achieve what we hope to achieve in healing ourselves and the world. But I think the frequency now is the potential is much greater than it was before, and that’s I think one of the things my son wanted to get across.

Johnny Burke: That’s definitely a good message. Anything else that we should know? Especially anything any messages from Pisti or your husband?

Betty Kovacs: Well, my husband’s first vision was love is the key to everything. And if we go through the heart and connect with the heart of the world, we realize it’s the same. And in every renaissance, the rebirth of this ancient knowledge, it was always the recognition that we heal the world through healing our own hearts, our own selves, and that and that we’re absolutely one.

My journey of healing my heart is a journey to heal the world.

Johnny Burke: I think we’re going to stop there because I don’t want to go past that and actually ruin it. So, Betty, thanks so much for joining us today. Great information as always. How can our, listeners, find out more about you online?

Betty Kovacs: Well, first of all, I want to say thank you for the work you’re doing, I love talking with you! They could go to kamlak.com, there are articles there in podcasts and webinars and things like that. If you sign up for a newsletter, then a chapter from Merchants of Light is sent to you automatically. It’s the one on the high Middle Ages, which is one of the most profound times we have had in the western world of the rebirth of this knowledge

#98 Betty Kovacs: Evidence Of Our Shaman-Mystic Past: What The Church Doesn’t Want You to Know

December 2, 2022 by Johnny Burke

Afterlife, Mystics

#christconsciousness, #christianity, #deadseascrolls, #divinefeminine, #divinemasculine, #gnosis, #invertedmyth, #lifeafterdeath, #mystic, #naghammadigospels, #shamanism, #templeofedfu

Johnny Burke: Welcome to Closer to Venus. I’m Johnny Burke, and today’s guest is Betty Kovacs. She has a PhD from the University of California Irvine in comparative literature in theory of symbolic mythic language. She’s also the author of Merchants of Light, The Consciousness that Is Changing The World as well as The Miracle of Death: There Is Nothing But Life. Today we’ll discuss the blueprint for our conscious evolution and what we know about the continuity of life after death. Betty, welcome to the show.

Betty Kovacs: Thank you so much, John

Johnny Burke: That is quite a mouthful, a blueprint for our conscious evolution and the continuity of life after death, are those two things directly connected or related, or are they pretty much separate ideas?

Betty Kovacs: No, they’re absolutely related because it’s so important in the blueprint for our evolution. Those who had experienced that wanted us to know when they did everything they could to save this information, to preserve it in all ways is that we are immortal, that our consciousness does not die, and that we are all part of the divine and that we are creators. These three things are absolutely essential for our knowledge of who we are.

Johnny Burke: Now you mentioned that we are creators. That’s actually the first time I’ve ever heard that. can you tell us exactly what that means?

Betty Kovacs: Well, we’re all born out of what we might call the Big Bang , and that is divine consciousness that is born into time and space, and we are all part of that. So in many different ways, we are creative and the mind, something that we’ve forgotten in our culture is so powerfully creative, we’ve just forgotten it. We don’t quite know what we can actually do by thinking and allowing that conscious energy to flow through us. So we are creative in that way.

Johnny Burke: When speakers come onto the show and they talk about things we have forgotten, I can’t help but think that that recalls theories of where thousands of years ago, we really were an advanced race. Not just technology-wise, but consciousness-wise. what are your thoughts?

Betty Kovacs: Well, I have become convinced through my research that yes, there was an ancient culture probably worldwide, and we did have a higher level of consciousness that expressed itself spiritually and technically. I think that we’re discovering this more and more each decade. But yes, I would say yes to that. I’m quite convinced of it.

Johnny Burke: And when you mention worldwide, I could not help or think of ancient civilizations like Atlantis, which I hear about quite a bit on the show and others as well. Lemuria is another. What are your thoughts on those cultures?

Betty Kovacs: that was a question for me for a long time of course, as it has been for anyone who ever hears it. Let me just say one thing that I thought was quite convincing. That is that now, archeologists have discovered that at the Temple of Edfu in Egypt, on the walls are engraved texts, and these texts tell us that the people came to Egypt from Atlantis and they engraved on the wall that they had come from Atlantis, they were a higher civilization, and that they had gone to Egypt in various other places around the world, those who survived and held some of the knowledge of that, civilization. So I thought that was kind of convincing. At Edfu they were probably engraved around 200. BCE, but they were from much older texts, it was clear. So that’s one thing. There are other things that are convincing, but I thought that was a pretty convincing one.

Johnny Burke: It does sound like it. And many speakers that come onto the show have had certain types of intuitive experiences. They saw spirits when they were younger and, they’re able to channel and things of that nature. Have you had any of those experiences directly in your life?

Betty Kovacs: Well, yes but I didn’t have for a very long time, although I certainly sought such experiences. I had intuition and I had dreams, and I paid very close attention to the dreams, but it really wasn’t until our only child, our son Pisti was killed in an automobile accident at 20 that that just opened up, and my husband hadn’t even been interested in trying – he was a businessman. Although he is sympathetic to my interest, they weren’t his. But when our son died, about a week after his death, we began to experience his consciousness very, very powerfully. And he wanted us to know he’s fine, he’s alive, that of course we are immortal, all of us, and that he was still creating.

And he also wanted us to know what the earth was going through for the next few decades that we were going to be going through a huge transition, and he wanted to tell us and talk to us about that. But it wasn’t only with him that opened up and we experienced such a vast consciousness that we had no idea about before.

In fact, Miracle of Death is a recording of many of those experiences because we recorded them right after we had them so that we could keep a very precise record of them. And so, we actually knew after having those experiences that there was something very vast and we were involved in it. All of us on the planet are involved in this right now. So that is in Miracle of Death.

Johnny Burke: A very traumatic experience like that obviously it’s very hard to go through, but it also seems to have had a vast impact on your work going forward, exploring consciousness and all the things that are connected,

Betty Kovacs: Yes, my work would’ve been historical, and based on some of the dreams that were very powerful. But it wouldn’t have had the power, and I hope it has power, at least they were very, very powerful for me. I had always wanted to know for sure. And that’s what Gnosis actually is. It’s a direct experience in which we know we don’t need someone else to tell us or teach us or a doctrine; we know.

The direct experience, of course, the Roman church rejected because it would go against dogma perhaps. So they didn’t want anyone having these direct experiences, and so they called people who had them heretics, but of course it was the mystics who were the heretics who had experiences. So it made all the difference in the world.

Johnny Burke: And isn’t it a bit ironic, we can learn more from the mystics than we can from the canon of the church. Would you agree??

Betty Kovacs: Oh well I do agree because, the mystics, had their texts. Those texts were written out of the teachings of the great mystics, and Jesus was one such teacher, a great shaman mystic, who was actually a rebirth of the ancient shaman mystic tradition in Judaism in the first temple. And that was destroyed in 621 BCE. Jesus was a rebirth of that as were the Essenes at the Dead Sea Scrolls– before Jesus. They were a continuation of the Judaic mystical tradition of the Dead Sea. So that makes the Dead Sea Scrolls very important later. Well, actually, Jesus was born while the mystics around the Dead Sea were still there, not really writing anymore, but Jesus was also the rebirth of that.

And all the way from Egypt through the Palestinian area were those people who rejected the second temple, which had rejected mysticism, and they were mystics. This is a Christianity, a mystical Christianity, which still exists today, but is not part of the church the Roman church.

Johnny Burke: I was about to say when I used to go to catechism, we called it CCD, I just assumed everyone went to church and had to go to CCD at least once a week after school. They never taught us any of that, but while we’re on that subject, in your book you mentioned that Jesus was part of the resurgence of ancient wisdom. I believe you were speaking to that right now.

Betty Kovacs: Yes. Yes, that’s correct. And it’s very, very important to know that, at 621 BCE, the tradition of Solomon Temple, the first temple tradition through the work of Old Testament scholar Margaret Barker. We know that it was a shaman mystic tradition. We didn’t know that before, but since the Dead Sea Scrolls have been found, we are able to put all of those texts together, not the Hebrew text and Christian texts, the Bible, they’re no longer privileged because we have all of these other texts now that we can see a much larger picture. And so we now know that this first temple tradition was a shaman mystic tradition, and then it became very clear that Jesus was a mystic, a shaman mystic, continuing that ancient Hebrew tradition.

Now, the scholars and the mystics at the Dead Sea. They were earlier and they had probably been in existence before they began collecting and writing at the Dead Sea, which was about 200. BCE up to 70 AD when the temple was destroyed again. So these mystics were scattered throughout Egypt, all through the Palestinian area, but then they began collecting at the Dead Sea and they then said very clearly, we are the true covenant of Israel. Meaning we are carrying on the tradition of the first temple, which is shaman mystic that we can have direct experience of the divine.

Johnny Burke: it’s really interesting because I just recently interviewed someone who wrote a book entitled Jesus The Ultimate Shaman.

Betty Kovacs: Oh, that’s good.

Johnny Burke: I think the way that you explain this, you’re going way back in history and talking about mystics but what this man was saying was a lot of the things that Jesus did, appear to be shamanic practices. Shamanism is what, 50, 60, 70,000 years old, if not older.

Betty Kovacs: Yes. Yeah, about 40,000 BCE as far as we know. It developed, interestingly, all around the world. I think that’s when we learned how to tune in to this vast consciousness that we all are. And of course, a shaman who’s well developed could heal. That’s very, very important in healing. And of course could go beyond the physical laws of nature as we know them. So the miracles were their ability to go beyond those laws that we know, and Jesus seemed to have been able to do that. Mm-hmm.

Johnny Burke: Yes. And while we’re on that subject, another question I had, was from the book, How is The Voice of Jesus different in the Nag Hammadi Gospels as opposed to the New Testament gospels?

Betty Kovacs: Well, that’s a very important and crucial question, because of the Jesus tradition that existed when Jesus was alive. He was creating the tradition all along. He was a shaman and a mystic, and he was giving up those teachings. But when the Roman church in the fourth century became the religion of Rome, The territory, the empire. They took the texts. There were hundreds of texts available, but the church, the men who met, who decide which text would go in the canon, the Bible, they were texts that would support what they had developed in their doctrine. I think it’s amazing that the teachings of Jesus, many of them are in that text and they’re beautiful because they give us a glimpse of the depth and the beauty and the consciousness that we are capable of.

The beauty of that character was very influential to me as a child. I’d go to Sunday school, and I would hear these stories of this person who was honest, had great integrity and loved that was incredible. However, the church denied so much of the hidden tradition that Jesus, when he was alive, had taught, and he did not teach that he was a God. We didn’t know that though, because those texts weren’t chosen by the church. And in Egypt there was a monastery and the Catholic church amongst the church, visited that area and they told them, either you get rid of these texts, or we’ll destroy them. And that was at Nag Hammadi in Egypt. So they didn’t get rid of them. They pretended I guess, but they buried them. And we -I know it!

Johnny Burke: And good for us, rather

Betty Kovacs: Good ? Yes. Isn’t it so? Because after the war they were discovered. Well, of course there were a lot of political difficulties, both with the Dead Sea text., They were also discovered after the war, and that was Judaism, but okay, was Jesus and the Nag Hammadi text, who is not God. And he says” I did not come to save you. I did not die to save you. I came to remind you of who you are. You are the light, and we are divine and conscious and creative.” And here is this incredible, Jesus who’s speaking as a true shaman that he is saying,” Remember who you are. You have forgotten. I am here to remind you.”

Johnny Burke: the layman’s interpretation of that, and correct me if I go off track here, is Jesus said in that text, in the Nag Hammadi gospels,” don’t worship me, become me.”

Betty Kovacs: Oh, yes. That’s so beautiful. And for people who are interested in the Nag Hamaddi texts , I would recommend, Marvin Meyers Gospels of Jesus, because he is a wonderful introduction. In many of these gospels, it’s very clear we’re not to worship. We are not to worship Jesus, not follow the Christ, but to become the Christ, which is that higher consciousness, that is so important because of course the church could not have power unless they said,” you are nothing. You must follow this. You must worship this.” Being outside yourself, and of course, once we put it outside, we are nothing. And that’s a great, great shame and it had a tremendous negative effect on humanity, on the western world especially.

Johnny Burke: Without question. When we first spoke about this, I thought, what would it actually take for the church to basically do a 180 and say,” Oh, by the way, we were wrong.” That’s never going to happen.

Betty Kovacs: It’s not,

Johnny Burke: But there are those of us who will eventually come to acknowledge this and say that is much more aligned with a newer consciousness. What I mean by that, is not new age or anything that reeks of hokey, pseudoscience, but everything that is aligned with Ascension and trying to raise your vibe and everything. That statement,” don’t follow me, become me”sounds a lot more realistic.

Betty Kovacs: Of course. Well, in the early shamans, there was no doctrine, there were no statements about what we ought to do. It was how do we release that valve. We’re all born into universal consciousness, but there’s a valve that we sort of keep all of that from coming in. We sort of just reduce that consciousness to a trickle so that we can brush our teeth, go to the grocery store, do interviews and things like that. The clue was, and this is what the Shaman Secret was, how do you release that valve? Many of their rituals were repetitive movements, which we now know, does release that valve- open consciousness. It creates a wave of energy that flows through all the brain components and integrates them. Then that kind of releases that valve and we remember who we are. After that, we can go back to it. But it’s so important that we know that we are all universal consciousness. We all have this ability. Once we know that, then we can begin working on how we want to create worlds, that we create the world that we are in, and co-create it. So how can we work together to co-create a better world?

Johnny Burke: Since you just mentioned remembering who we are. I want to go back to when we talked about ancient cultures that were more advanced and knowledgeable about the nature of humankind. Can we talk a little bit more about how they were firmly rooted in a higher consciousness, which was consistent with not worshiping Christ, but trying to actually become him?

Betty Kovacs: Yes. Well, the information is, not as plentiful as we would like, but if we just look at. shamans, 40,000 BCE and down. Then we see that it’s not about worshiping anybody. it’s about knowing that we have the ability to move from this dimension into the other dimension of consciousness.

When I was in South America working with shamans, they always talked about moving from the Tonal to the Naguel. It’s that we are here in this dimension for very good reasons, consciously, but then when we do our rituals, when we meditate, we move into that other consciousness, which is so incredibly important now.

The Egyptian culture, when that developed, we could get a better idea from the Egyptian culture than from anything else perhaps of what this culture was like because it was very much a development of heart consciousness of feeling. They knew that. Feeling from the heart opens us to that vast consciousness. Is a major thing we know from these ancient cultures, and we know it very much particularly through the Egyptian culture, and early Egyptian culture. There was a balance between, of course, masculine and feminine energies between matter and spirit. So there was that balance and that joy of being alive, there was nothing like you’re a sinner, you have to do this, we did none of that. It was, we are spirit in matter creating worlds and we can keep that connection, which is our heritage, to keep that connection conscious through the heart.

Now we know even scientifically that the heart is a brain component and that the heart gives more, information to the brain than the brain gives to the heart. There should be a circulation of energy constantly going through the heart, up the brain, the spine up through all of the brain components into the heart. When we get scared, all of that energy goes back to the reptilian brain. That’s why anyone who wants to control us makes us scared to death- scare the people and they’ll believe anything because they’re not circulating that energy through the brain components and into the heart. So that was the teaching, and it was a joy of being alive. But they also knew that there is no way that you could have a civilization if you didn’t have the feeling from the heart.

Look at what Western culture has done; it’s cut out the heart. We haven’t even known it’s a brain component. And we also dismiss the right hemisphere, which is very receptive to heart consciousness and speaks in its language of symbols to the left brain. So the symbolic brain has a poetic logic. The Western mind is that, oh, it’s nothing. No logic at all. And it gives that logic to the left brain, which does its wonderful work of analyzing and separating, but it must always include the right brain. So we saw that this is what these ancient cultures knew. They understood that, and that’s what we lost in the west and became pathological.

Johnny Burke: We’ve touched on a bunch of different things here which sounds like the decline of Western civilization. But also, in Merchants of Light- this is where you talk about the evidence of shaman-mystic- scientists past -I believe you called it, which was consistently repressed by church and state. Now it’s emerging with the blueprint for our evolution. The emergence of that blueprint, how does that coincide with what a lot of intuitives describe as ascension? Is it the same thing or not necessarily?

Betty Kovacs: Yes. I think that once we recognize, once again that we have everything we need to be who we are, to be fully in that vast consciousness. Then come back and create in time and space that this is the blueprint of allowing our consciousness to be heart centered because that opens to that vast consciousness and flows through all the brain components. That opening to the vast consciousness is our ascension and integrating it.

Johnny Burke: Does that have something to do with moving from the third dimension or three D to five D, as well as moving away from the masculine energy to the feminine energy or the divine feminine? Or are we seeking more of a balance between the divine masculine and the divine feminine?

Betty Kovacs: Definitely a balance. we in the west have repressed, and suppressed the heart consciousness, which was always symbolized as feminine. The feminine was the life-giver, soul, and nature. So once we suppressed that and repressed that, we just developed the left-brain rational consciousness.

This was a loss of the blueprint; the blueprint is taking consciousness in through the heart to feel everything and allow it to flow through the brain. All of the brain components that we’ve developed, which would be the feminine we’d call the heart, and the symbolic right brain into the masculine and the masculine is a very important brain component because it analyzes it. We love that in the west, and I love it -that looking at things from a rational perspective, what we call scientific, but it has to flow back into the right brain and its connection to heart, the feeling and balance. So it’s a balance between the masculine and feminine. The. Masculine has suffered just as much as the feminine from this repression and suppression because it can’t be who it is without its partner.

And this is what, of course, in the Nag Hammadi text, and the Jesus of the Nag Hammadi text is that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalena. He loved her and he was sexually related to her. This is very different from the church because we live in time and space in a physical world. Matter is sacred. So this was a very important aspect of being alive in the mystical tradition. I think it was Pope Innocent. The third, I believe, who said “sexuality is so shameful that it is intrinsically evil. ‘And another theologian said, “Wherever sex is, the Holy Spirit is absent” this is pathological.

Johnny Burke: It’s interesting that you, mentioned that because the Pope making a statement like that, that’s actually closer to blasphemy than anything else. You have to kind of turn your brain upside down to really understand their logic because I never could

Betty Kovacs: There’s no logic in it.

Johnny Burke: even as a young boy, I thought something doesn’t really add up or make sense here.

Betty Kovacs: We were born into that, into that pathology,

Johnny Burke: There’s good things about faith communities, but the more I interview people on the show and these types of things come up, I think many of us realize that religion- with all due respect to people that go to church, it does tend to get in the way for those that want more answers.

There are people that go to church and they’re content to just go through the motions and, network with people and meet new people. And I guess there’s nothing wrong with that, but at the same time, what you’re saying is that what they’re doing is teaching inaccuracies- it’s not correct.

Betty Kovacs: That’s right. They have selected a few texts and tampered with them, you know, and many things that I hear Christians say that the church teaches, I don’t know where they find it even in those texts.

Let me go just for a moment to the Gospel of Philip, which is in the Nag Hammadi text, and in the Gospel of Philip, he teaches the teachings of Jesus and that sexuality- the actual sexual coming together of male and female is the holy of Holies. It is the sacred initiation and to the depths of who we are. This is so different from what the church teaches. Of course, they don’t want to look at the Nag Hammadi text, because in this, Jesus is married to Mary Magdalena, and the sexual act is where God is. It is where the Holy Spirit is. This is the initiation, the experiencing of the sacred marriage of matter and spirit, and recognizing that matter is sacred.

Johnny Burke: I’ve never heard it explained like that, but to me it’s a union, casual or not. There’s a reason why people are attracted to each other and,

Betty Kovacs: It’s a beautiful reason. And to have made it evil, is pathological and we have to recognize that.

This emerged very clearly at the time of the first Temple, 621 BCE under Josiah. When the Deuteronomists, were a minority group of priests, they then destroyed everything from the first temple. The shaman mystic tradition was destroyed and the feminine was prominent because she and the masculine, the union was sacred, and she had images all over the place. They destroyed all of the images of the feminine, her sacred tree. She had groves of trees, because the tree was a symbol of life and becoming conscious, destroyed all of those trees, wiped out the feminine, and wiped out the wisdom literature about the blueprint for our development. Some Jews took it to Egypt, and it was saved, but this was a time when we look at that story of the tree, I used to think as a kid, what a horrible story, but didn’t know what to do with it.

Why would God not want us to be conscious? And so the earlier Sumerian myths there are seals. And when I discovered this, when I was teaching mythology, I loved it. And all the students loved it too. Here are these wonderful images of the God and the goddess sitting before the sacred tree of life that is hanging with fruit, and they are both putting out their hands to offer it- here it is. If you are ready to take it, take it. This was the tradition, the sacred tree. It was becoming conscious of who we are, what Jesus later would teach in the secret tradition, the hidden tradition that he taught, but think how pathological these Deuteronomists were because they made it a sin to eat it. They punished the man with all types of hardships. They punished the feminine so that she would have a horrible time in childbirth. Sexuality was original sin. Everyone is born out of sin. This is totally pathological and it’s a complete inversion of our true story.

Johnny Burke: Right. They literally did invert the story and disconnected us from the truth of who we were. This is actually right from the book.

Betty Kovacs: Yes, and the Roman Church continued that,

Johnny Burke: Yeah, they did, without question. Now, the Deuteronomists, did they have anything to do with the eradication of any mention of reincarnation in the Bible, or was that another council?

Betty Kovacs: Well, you know, many Christians, this is long after the first temple was gone, when Christianity came into being, and they still believed. They did believe in reincarnation, and I think in terms of Christianity, the Roman church had a lot to do with that. It with. And now of course, that knowledge is coming back. There is so much scientific, we’d have to call it scientific. It’s not just anecdotal, because when you put all of these anecdotal experiences together, they form a coherent system, a body of evidence. The evidence sometimes is just absolutely astounding. So, those who have read the evidence know that reincarnation does take place. But I think that in terms of Christianity the Roman Church had more to do with that.

Johnny Burke: This has been, a pretty incredible explanation of how the church did interfere with the natural course of things with our beliefs. Would you say they inverted the myths? Is that fair to say?

Betty Kovacs: Precisely, they did, and also Jesus is an inversion because the Nag Hammadi texts show us that Jesus wanted to give us the blueprint for our awakening, and the church inverted that into a God outside of us that we should worship. That means we’re not going to have that experience. If anybody said they had a direct experience, a gnostic experience, they were sinners. They were heretics and were pushed out of the church, and the great mystics of Christianity had a very difficult time staying within the church. The church wanted to get rid of all of them because that would reduce their power.

It is so sad to see that from 621 with the Deuteronomists and the continuation of the fourth century with the church, we have been suppressed. We’ve actually lived in a pathological culture since then. That may seem strong, but it isn’t because the right brain was suppressed, the heart, nobody knew anything about it, and you take the authorities’ word for things rather than going within and knowing for yourself.

Johnny Burke: When we talk about ascension and an emerging blueprint, the mystics will eventually convince and influence a lot of us to really see the light, to see who we really are. would you agree?

Betty Kovacs: Yes, and I think it’s important for us to remember; trust our hearts. Trust our intuition. Look at our dreams and awaken to our own ability. We are all potential mystics. And Jesus teaches that in the Nag Hammadi text; “you are light, and you come from the light.” I have this in the book, and I love this from, uh, the Nag Hammadi text: Jesus says, “If you bring that forth what is within you, it will save you. But if you don’t, it will destroy you.” And I think that’s what we see in Western culture. We have not brought forth, each one of us, what is within us that will save us. It’s always an outside power trying to control us. That’s as true today as it was then. And we need to know that.

I’ve always felt that those who’ve gone before me and have had these experiences, they guided me. They helped me. They helped me to keep open, but it was my own experience which I knew. And I didn’t care what anybody else said. I knew that, and this is something that’s very, very sad to me, is that I know people who are part of the church, and the church has been a great community for them. But what happened is that they had some experiences of their own and the church convinced them that it was of the devil. That is still being taught, that our own inner experience, mystical experiences of the devil.

JohnnyBurke: That’s a shame-

Betty Kovacs: Oh, that is heartbreaking. And yet there are people living that way today and ignoring their own experiences.

JohnnyBurke: So I think the underlying message is bring the light – that basically is the way. Betty, thanks so much for joining us. Really enjoyed this discussion. How can our listeners find out more about you?

Betty Kovacs: They can go to the Kamlak Center, kamlak.com

#72 Patty Lennon: Talking With Jesus

June 4, 2022 by Johnny Burke

spirit guides, Spirit World

#ascendedmaster, #brigidofkildare, #christconsciousness, #church, #divinefeminine, #jesus, #joanchittister, #kuanyin, #lifebetweenlives, #prebirthplanning, #sacramentoftransubstantiation, #spiritguides, #theblackmadonna, #whitetara

Johnny Burke: .Welcome to Closer to Venus, I’m Johnny Burke. Today we welcome back Patty Lennon, who is a coach, author of Make Space For Magic and founder of The Receiving School. Today, we’re going to talk about how people communicate with Jesus and other ascended masters Patty, welcome back.

Patty Lennon: Thank you for having me back. What a privilege.

Johnny Burke : It’s a pleasure, and I do believe this,episode may be a first of a series of people that communicate with Christ, as I’ve actually come across quite a few people that have told me that this is actually pretty common. So here we go. You’ve had many experiences and you told me recently that you were now communicating with Christ. When did you first realize that was happening and otherwise, how did that start?

Patty Lennon: Well, I think since I was raised Christian and a Catholic, There was a level of discipline of praying, there was a certain level of, talking to maybe Jesus, as a child. The experience I have now is very different. This feels personal, the communication feels personal. Whereas when I was a child and I was doing it under the tutelage of nuns and priests, it just sort of felt like Jesus was over there and I was talking to him, and maybe I’d get sort of a whiff of something back, but it wasn’t this one-to-one communication. Jesus had been showing up and I didn’t realize it was Jesus, for a couple of years. And when he finally told me he was Jesus, it was actually during the beginning of the pandemic. So I had always had this particular guy that showed up that looked somewhat like a 20 something college student. He was slim, he had jeans, he would always have like Tivas or something on. And he would kind of give me some snarky advice.

Johnny Burke : Really? snarky you say?

Patty Lennon: Yeah, always snarky. And for the most part, that’s a lot of the energy he shows up for me usually is that version. Over the course of my life, the footprints prayer– the footprints in the sand when there was only one set of footprints, Jesus was carrying me. That was always very close to my heart. And I did always, even as a child in very difficult moments, feel Jesus’s love near.

So I was out for a walk and I felt Jesus near me. I said, “well, what do you want? What are you doing here?” Like, I can feel you, you’re not going away so obviously, you’re feeling something in my heart. And all of a sudden he just took form, in a very specific form . He looked more or less like what he would look like when we would think he was alive on the planet.. He was telling me that I needed to essentially get over some of the childhood pain that I was processing at that particular time. He goes, “you can’t do your work on the planet. If you keep holding this.” And I was like, well, it’s Interesting that you’re showing up now when I’m 48 and it’s really hard to get rid of trauma. Where were you when I was like eight or nine when we could have like nipped this in the bud? ” if this isn’t helpful for me, why are you showing up so late to the game?”

Johnny Burke : Here’s a question that I know is going to come up. no matter what, how do we know that it’s really him and not an imposter spirit? and I’m not one to buy into conspiracy theories of any kind, but it’s a reasonable question.

Patty Lennon: It’s a very real question. First of all, you have to be clear about what your level of discernment is. I’ve been doing this work for a long time. I haven’t always talked to the other side of the veil, but I have been able to do it since I was 35. And I’m 50 now. I’ve been working on these gifts consistently for 15 years. So at the point of this story, I had built up discernment and I built up processes for grounding myself and understanding the feeling state of loving communication. And so I would say at the heart of it, loving communication from the other side of the veil, no matter who it is, whatever ascended master or spirit guide is talking to, you will ultimately feel like love inside your body. The feeling of love is the same feeling you get for any human or pet or baby that you have unconditional love for. So first understand what that physically feels like in your body. As you receive that communication, you should feel something of a similar nature. That cannot be fake.

I don’t communicate with deceivers. I just don’t have that level of communication with the other side. One of my spirit teachers does clear dark spirits. She does work withentities that are a little more troublesome. I’m not denying that they exist. I have not had interactions with them. But if that is something that is of concern for you, just understand free will. It always trumps everything. So you saying only love gets to play here, always counts. So you will always get to set those ground rules.

Johnny Burke : Let’s talk about spirit guides and the angels. You’ve had experiences with them before. Was that your initiation or did it all kind of happen at once?

Patty Lennon: No, that was my initiation. So I was in a desert, at a retreat, started to know things. And so it really came through initially as claircognizance, suddenly the information is in your mind. I doubted it. And as I started to work with this being reality, and I was getting different occurrences in my life to tell me that these were real pieces of information I was knowing, I started to ask for help. Slowly more nuanced communication forms came through the more time I spent in quiet.

So at first, it was spirit guides that came to me. Giving me, an understanding that they had always been with me that everyone’s always had spirit guides from the beginning of their lives. And then they get extra spirit guides when they’re doing new tasks, so that I was having new spirit guides coming into my life to help me as I start to do this intuitive work and that they were going to help me.

Johnny Burke : You mentioned before when you first encountered, Jesus. He looked like a regular dude, like a 20 something. Now I’ve also had people tell me that Christ does appear to us as we would imagine him to be. Also, the demeanor is close to what our demeanor is, which would explain the first encounter, the first few encounters, he was somewhat snarky, which obviously would kind of mirror your personality, right? I do remember someone telling me recently she said,” Jesus is my dude, but not in a religious way.” this kind of experience, this communication dialogue, that is a departure from so-called religious experiences. Is it not?

Patty Lennon: I will say that Jesus does sometime appear to me exactly as the sacred heart of Jesus. So with the burning heart,, he does come to me sometimes like that. The way that he appears is relative to what he’s looking to accomplish in that particular communication.

When you look at how he would have appeared to people prior to 2012, where we really start to have this energetic shift into the divine feminine. Then when you go back to the seventies, where we first start to see that Aquarius energy open people up. You’re going to see, he’s going to come through what’s available to him. And then when you go back further, he’s going to appear in whatever form gets him to his end goal, which is helping people know and understand his love and support. The further back you go, the more traditional he would have looked. And this is my understanding- just because he wanted to make it easy for people.

Johnny Burke : You mentioned 2012 and the divine feminine. What does this have to do with Ascension? And what does that have to do with the uptick in people, intuitives that report being able to communicate with Jesus? Is there a connection there, or is that not the case?

Patty Lennon: Yeah. Yeah. There is. First of all, in 2012, when the Mayan calendar originally ended and people thought the world was gonna end because the Mayan calendar ended, what really was happening was the ancient Mayans understood humanity was on a course. It was either going to make the decision to evolve or die And we made the decision as humanity to evolve. So 2012 wasn’t the end of the world. It was just the beginning of this next occurrence. What was required in evolution was for us to shift out of this dysfunctional masculine energy, which just means way more masculine energy than feminine. We just need to be in balance.

That feminine energy is intuitive energy. It’s the receptive energy. So your ability to get your intuition and talk to the other side of the veil is our feminine energy. So Jesus’ ability to get through the veil to people just grew and grew and grew every year since then. Also our willingness to lean into love, which is what Jesus’s mission is, right? Is disruptive love. That’s his energy.

Johnny Burke : Disruptive love. That’s a really good description of 2012 and the divine feminine and how that ties into what’s happening now because along with Ascension, there’s a lot of chatter and discussion about, the empathic big bang. The medium explosion. Intuition really is the feminine energy. And now that we’re shifting upwards, correcting the balance between the feminine and the male energy, what does that have to do with the energy healers, the shamans, the mystics from thousands of years ago?Is there a connection there?

Patty Lennon: Between them and Jesus or between them and the time we’re in now?

Johnny Burke : What was happening then and what’s happening now.

Patty Lennon: They were the ones who had the courage to hold the light in a sea of darkness. The connection is they came in service to all of us. They just kept showing up and anchoring the light and healing what they could heal so that we could progress through our free choice. And ultimately, hopefully, set humanity up to make a choice that led to evolution and not destruction. .

Johnny Burke : since we’re on that subject and we’re touching on mysticism and shamanism and ultimately how that was repressed by church and state for centuries, your experiences with Jesus as well as others. How do you suppose that changes our views on religion and the church?

Patty Lennon: I don’t know that it changes our views on religion and the church, because ultimately I think what everyone has the opportunity to do is to separate your relationship with Jesus, from your relationship with a Jesus-based church. and understand that churches served humanity in a benevolent way, and also were power structures. The time they were created, there was a lot of fear and power in the way that they taught God and created a relationship for people with God, but it was also of the time it matched the vibration of the time. As the vibration of the planet has changed, the church has not necessarily evolved. With it. Although I personally feel our current Pope holds a very deep level of compassion and love within him. I think he really embodies an evolved level of compassion, maybe he can’t shift the Titanic that is the Catholic church overnight, but, he is showing up in a very different way than the last Pope.

Johnny Burke : Yeah, that’s true. I would agree with that.

Patty Lennon: Yeah, but I think, religion and I’ll use my dad as an example, who’s crossed over. My dad was a devout Catholic. And when he crossed over and found out that all the rules he followed weren’t necessary, he said”, but they served me, Patty. They served me but what. I would want everyone to know is that when you cross over, kindness is the only currency and you will receive the kindness back that you put out into the world.” And he wished he had known that better. He was a deeply kind, man. So it wasn’t that he wasn’t kind, but he wished he had understood how good he truly was that the church didn’t fully let him experience that.

Johnny Burke : Ithink the issue with church, and I’ve heard this from many intuitives, they agree there’s obviously inaccuracies in the Bible, and they don’t agree with all of what is taught in church, but the same people openly profess their love for Jesus. The more I talk to people like them and like you, of course, with your example with your dad, it served him. He wished he would have known the rules before .

Patty Lennon: The Bible has been translated through three separate languages , and then been taken out of the context of history. Unless you can source the original language and the historical context, you will never fully understand the Bible. And most of it has been bastardized- it’s taken something that I truly believe was divinely given, but it’s been taken out of context.

Johnny Burke-: Is that a fair point to say that Christianity does need a reboot? Or is it not even worth bringing that up?

Patty Lennon: Christianity is so different, Catholics are so different than Presbyterians from Baptists, not that I consider myself a practicing Catholic, but I’m wildly different than a Unitarian church. I think there are pieces of Christianity that are evolving beautifully, it doesn’t need a reboot. I think it serves a certain group of people and I think we are all being called to understand what is it that we need to have a full and complete relationship with the divine. You have to be honest with whether your religion of origin does that for you or not.

Johnny Burke : That’s a good point. You have to be honest with that particular branch of the church. Let’s say you go to a church and you like the sermons. You liked the pastor. And then someone brings up the fact that they don’t accept gays, for instance- anybody who’s not heterosexual. And who doesn’t know someone who’s either a sibling or a friend or a friend of a friend? That creates conflict. I know a lot of people that had a problem with that. And that’s just further evidence that there are bits and pieces of the Bible that are obviously outdated. But as you said, there are good parts, but it’s been obscured and bastardized and taken out of context where sometimes it’s better to either throw it out completely or just accept it for what it is- be a kind person, be loving, and hope for the best.

Patty Lennon: I think inside what you just said is the idea, and I’ll just stick with Catholicism, because it’s my point of reference the Catholic church says that, sexual intercourse between same-sex individuals is a sin, Right? If you’re counting yourself as a Catholic, are you then affirming that?

Johnny Burke-: Well, yeah, you’re a member and you’re going to a club. If you choose to look the other way, that’s going to give some people a problem. Whereas some people cannot look away and then they’re thinking,” nah, not going to that club anymore.”

Patty Lennon: I would say I was able to actively stay a part of the Catholic church when I was, and opposed that actively. I believe it’s possible to be part of a church, an activist within the church. And one of my favorite people is sister Joan Chittister, she’s an amazing activist. And she says she can’t leave the Catholic church because the sacraments mean too much to her. But she actively opposes these things and she is such a powerful voice within the church. Her staying a part of the Church does far more to move activism forward in a way that I think would match what Jesus wanted more than her leaving the church.

Johnny Burke : So to get back to Jesus, since you’ve had these experiences, does that kind of alleviate any misgivings you’ve had about the church or about religion in general? where you can look at it and say I found the divine source, so I don’t really need to judge it.

Patty Lennon: I think knowing Jesus, the way that I do now, I can say he, he feels no alliance with the Catholic church.

Johnny Burke-: Okay.

Patty Lennon: I don’t think he would be like,” oh yeah, you need to be a Catholic to be in a relationship with me. ” he was dead and gone by the time the Catholic church was created, you know?

Johnny Burke-: Right. He didn’t create that. he didn’t create the church.

Patty Lennon: No

Johnny Burke-: Did he actually tell you that?

Patty Lennon: Yes. but he does have a deep love.of the sacrament of transubstantiation, which is the blessing of the community, which is what makes Catholics different than some of the other Christians is they actually believe it becomes the body and blood of Jesus Christ. That sacrament done in respect, he appreciates the ability to be in communion with humanity on that level. It’s not that he is without the love of the sacraments, but he doesn’t require them to be in a relationship with him. That’s my understanding.

There are still things I’m still reckoning with in the Catholic church that I have been able to reckon with, but I’m still answering to my children, specifically my daughter, is still hard. I appreciate the Catholic church and the people I, learned from gave me a very loving relationship to the divine. I didn’t have a hell and brimstone kind of upbringing, but there’s a reckoning for the harm that’s been done, but I don’t think it is related to Jesus and I don’t think Jesus needs to answer for it.

Johnny Burke : I think that’s a great way for you to reconcile your beliefs with your discovery and your communication. Because I think whether you go to church or not, I think everyone deep down inside wants this kind of relationship with the divine, right? For someone that is not religious, maybe doesn’t even believe in anything- can that kind of person have the kind of experience that you have?

Patty Lennon: Yeah. And I think they’d be closer to it

Johnny Burke-: really? Why is that?

Patty Lennon: Because they come without the baggage.

Johnny Burke : Very interesting. I never thought of it that way. in other words, they don’t have the baggage of the beliefs and the guilt and everything else that is associated with that. what else has he told you that our listeners need to know about; lessons messages or are his messages more on a one-to-one basis? ,

Patty Lennon: I actually talked to Jesus before I did this interview with you today. because I wanted to make sure it was okay if you ask me questions where I was speaking kind of on his behalf.

Johnny Burke: Good.

Patty Lennon: Okay to do that, like, am I clear to do that? Do I need to stay in my own lane? What is it? usually when we talk it’s, one-to-one. It’s about me, you know, I’m very self-centered when it comes to my intuitive communication, but, he said,” you’re good to go Patty. The only thing I want people to know is how much I love them and how much I’m there for them”. Anyone .

Johnny Burke: Did he warn you about coming on to Closer to Venus for a second time? being snarky? I was kind of hoping he would. I’ll probably edit that out, anyway,

Patty Lennon: I think he’d like if you’d kept it in

Johnny Burke: Are you getting that intuition from him now, or are you just kind of guessing?

Patty Lennon: Yeah, Jesus really wants people to have a real-life relationship with him. Not, he’s on a pedestal and they’re down here. He wants an intimate, personal relationship. That is the way he can help them out. One of my highest performing podcasts was I told a conversation I had with Jesus. It was the one I started to tell you before where I was yelling at him and saying,” why weren’t you there for me?” He doesn’t need us to be devout in some weird religious way. He wants our truth. He wants us to process our pain with him. He wants our honesty because he can’t answer. If we don’t tell him the truth.

Johnny Burke: I never heard that before either, that’s really interesting. He wants our truth. However beautiful or however ugly it is,right?

Patty Lennon: Because he’s seen your pain. it hurts him. He doesn’t want you to pretend like you’re okay. He doesn’t need that.

Johnny Burke: Okay. What about other ascended masters that you’ve had communication with?

Patty Lennon: so the only ascended master, and I consider her an ascended master is Brigid. So she’s someone that works with me personally, St. Brigid, she works with me in that very personal way, but every other ascended master I’ve engaged with- Quan Yin, White Tara, Mother Mary, Mary Magdalen, every other ascended master I’ve worked with, it has felt much more like they’re there to help me. and they do give me communication and guidance, but the very personal level of it. I don’t experience myself. I know others who do, but I don’t.

Johnny Burke: So when you say it’s not that personal- can you give me a little bit more detail there?

Patty Lennon: Yeah. Brigid and Jesus both show up in a very physical experience. I can see them, they have clothes on, they have identifiers and it’s very conversational. When Quan Yin comes in, she helps us with self-compassion and love . I’ll ask her help and I’ll ask her guidance and I’ll say, ” Quan Yin I’m really struggling right now with doing the right thing here.” And she’ll say, “what does your heart say to do Patty? “And I’ll get an answer. And she was like, what else do you need to follow that answer? And I might come up with what it is. It feels very much like a teacher speaking to me. Whereas Jesus and Brigid sometimes feel like teachers, a lot of times they feel like friends.

Johnny Burke: Who do you suppose Brigid and Quan Yin are,? especially for those people that have never heard those names before.

Patty Lennon: You mean what’s the history on them? Quan Yin is a central figure in Buddhism. I don’t know that she has ever embodied herself in the human form.

Johnny Burke : Right.

Patty Lennon: She definitely stays present on the earth realm . That’s the ascended master piece. They’re here for us as masters of this human experience. Brigid has been believed to have walked the earth in pagan times. And because she was so central to people in Ireland in the Celtic regions, the Catholic church took her over And made her a Saint, and built a whole other origin story around her so that they could take everyone that believed in Brigid and bring them over to Catholicism. White Tara, again is an embodiment of energy and makes herself known. Another one that’s been working with me is Our Lady of Guadalupe, the Black Madonna. So it’s an embodiment of the Mother Mary energy through a culture that has built a very distinct relationship with her.

Johnny Burke-: That particular culture is obviously a very mystical one, indeed. How cool is it to have these kinds of communications with Jesus with all the ascended masters that you’ve ha?, what does it feel like? Do you get chills? How does it work?

Patty Lennon: It does when they come through for my clients. So when they’re coming through on behalf of someone else, what causes the hair to stand up for me? And I think this is why we have that hair standing up experience is you’re suddenly understanding that we are being lifted up out of a base human experience.

I have a friend who’s Jewish, and right now Jesus is very hard,working to be her friend and she’s hearing him a little bit and I just love it. He’s so perfect for her because right now her relationship to Judaism is very conflicted. So he’s perfect because he’s not involved, but he is Jewish. He knows what it’s like to have a Jewish mother. And he talks to her about these things, and when he’s talking to her, through me, my hair on my arms does stand up because I can feel his love for her. And that I get to be a conduit of that is extraordinary.

But when they come for me, I generally don’t have that experience because I’ve gone through the process of creating the environment and asking them to come in. On occasion when I’ve been in crisis and they’ve shown up, it’s like all of the fear drains out of my body and I suddenly feel at peace.

Johnny Burke: The ability to bring them forth for your clients has to be incredibly rewarding- it’s proof, it’s not just happening for you. It’s happening for your clients, for other people. And you actually get to watch that. What is that like?

Patty Lennon: My whole reason for being here on the planet, other than, the human stuff. I believe my purpose is to help people understand that they truly are loved by the divine. It’s almost like I’ve got this cup that needs to be filled and I’ve got these little tokens, and if I can keep putting enough tokens in it when the cup is full, enough love will exist. That the power that hateful people have and violent people have will go away. So for me, it’s this cyclical experiential cycle of knowing it’s getting better.

Johnny Burke : You brought up something about hateful people and people that do bad things. I’ve been told several times that once we cross over beyond the veil to the other side, manifestation is instant. I could imagine a jam session with Jimmy Hendrix, Prince and David Bowie, and I’ll even play bass if I have to. it would be incredible.

If that is true and I imagine it is, might the concept of hell actually be self-induced for those people that have done bad things? Once they cross over, they really feel the brunt and the burden of the things that they did before .Do you think that’s induced, or is that an external force that is actually forcing them into that space?

Patty Lennon: It is not an external force. I can say that with faith certainty. my understanding is when we cross over, we experience every action we took. The results of every action we took, but in reverse. So all the kindness we gave all the love we give, we get to feel what it felt for all the people that received it and all the pain we caused. We get to feel the pain as others received it as a result of our work and actions. And so hell then would be someone who spent most of their life causing pain.

Johnny Burke : It’s very consistent with what I’ve heard many times now. What about those people? We didn’t really talk about pre-birth planning, in between incarnations. Let’s say you and I are in a soul group and you come up to me in that space and say, Hey, Johnny, I need this experience, so you need to be the guy that ruins my family or just something heinous, whatever it is. Does that person that takes that part- does that alleviate them from any guilt or do they forget all about what they were here to do?

Patty Lennon: No, when you cross over. So, there’s one story I heard, which was a father who took on alcoholism. He was an alcoholic abusive father to serve his child’s path. The thing the child was learning, that soul was learning, was forgiveness, and they need to learn it at a very deep level. And at the end of that person’s life, they were holding on. And finally, the son said,” I forgive you.” And the man crossed over. And on the other side was the celebration because he couldn’t leave. He could’ve, it was painful to be here on this planet, locked in that addiction, but he sacrificed himself. So to give this person the time to reach forgiveness, Now, when he crosses over, does that mean he’s bearing the brunt of all of the pain along the way? I think it would be like a spark, it would be like a second of pain because it’s in the context of all of the other work he was doing.

Johnny Burke : What was pre-planned. Basically, it’s as if the director told himto play this role, so when he stepped off the stage, there was probably a spark, but then he realized, okay,” great, cut. You did a good job.”

Patty Lennon: Yeah.

Johnny Burke-: Really interesting. All right. Really cool stuff. So I guess the last question would be, the common man; how do we communicate with Jesus? I know I asked you this before, I want the listeners to hear this. How do we find the divine? How do we talk to Jesus, and for that matter our spirit guides?

Patty Lennon: Well, you just ask. They’re always communicating with you. It’s just you are not understanding their language. So what I highly recommend is asking for a specific sign or a set of signs that they can communicate with you until you learn to hear the more fluid, nuanced language. That’s one.

And if you’re trying to understand what ascended master is ready to work with you or which one would make the most sense? Just watch, they’ll start to show themselves to you. I have had, Kali- I have watched colleagues show herself to one of my friends, no less than three or four times. Just images. And her name comes up and I’m like, Kali is trying to tell you, she wants to work with you. they’ll show you.

Johnny Burke-: Excellent I don’t think I could do much better than that,so we’re going to end on that note. Patty, thanks so much for joining us. Excellent information, now for our listeners, how can they learn more about you online?

Patty Lennon: Well go to the space for magic podcasts. That’s the best way to keep up with me on a week-by-week basis, or if you want to get my book, go to PattyLennon.com/ make space for magic. And you’ll see all our goodies there around the book. every other way you can have free fun stuff.